top of page
TEXTURED-PATTERN-10.jpg

SEASON 3 RECAP AND OUTLOOK CHANGE FROM A HOLLYWOOD EXIT

December 1, 2022

S03 - E11

For the season finale of Season 3, RSnake sat down with the producer of The RSnake Show, Chris Debiec, for a retrospective and a behind-the-scenes look into the show. They dig into Chris' tax incentive bill, and how Chris' outlook has changed since moving out of Hollywood. Lastly, they discuss being cautious of the word "can't".

Photo of Chris Debiec
GUEST(S): 

Chris Debiec

VIDEO TRANSCRIPT

Robert Hansen

For the season finale of season three, I sat down with my producer Chris Debiec, for a retrospective and a behind the scenes look into the show. We also dig into his tax incentive bill and how his outlook has changed since moving out of Hollywood.


Lastly, we tackle a topic I've wanted to discuss for a while now, being cautious of the word can't. With that, please enjoy my conversation with Chris Debiec.


Chris Debiec

This is like the sixth podcast I've done.


Robert Hansen

Not with me.


Chris Debiec

No. Second. Do I have food in my teeth?


Robert Hansen

This is going to record, you realize this?


Chris Debiec

Yeah, I know.


Robert Hansen

We're going to have this on the recording, right?


Chris Debiec

That's okay. Anyone doing a podcast, make sure you don't have food in your teeth.


Robert Hansen

And with that welcome to the RSNAKE Show today with me, Chris Debiec, also my producer. How are you sir?


Chris Debiec

I'm good. Nice to be here. Even though I'm sitting in the control room right next door usually.


Robert Hansen

Yes. Well, it's a little different to having you up close and personal. Normally I just get to hear you in my ears.


Chris Debiec

Yeah. Well, you could see me talking to you as well.


Robert Hansen

Now, I can even see you. This is a different kind of episode for a couple of different reasons. We had some plans to do one in another state and plans blew up because people got sick and just wasn't going to work out.


We ended up staying here and you and I were talking about what we should do instead. I got to think there might be something we could do more about the show itself and also some other things I've been thinking that might be better for just sort of the audience at large.


Not necessary about me or you or the guest, whatever it is. I pitched you the idea this morning, and so this is thrown together much quicker than we normally would do this.


Chris Debiec

That's a great idea. I love it.


Robert Hansen

There's a number of things that I wanted to get out of the way first of all. For those of you who are just seeing this we actually have a tree, a little min-tree behind us. It is actually not Christmas. It is not even Thanksgiving yet.


Chris Debiec

True.


Robert Hansen

First of all, happy Thanksgiving to you, sir.


Chris Debiec

You too as well.


Robert Hansen

You are staying in town?


Chris Debiec

Yes. I'm staying in town. Went shopping today, Whole Foods. Oh my God. It was absolutely nuts. Costco's right next door, so I just made a quick trip in and that was double as nuts.


Robert Hansen

Really?


Chris Debiec

Yeah.


Robert Hansen

I bet. I think everyone takes this entire week off even if they say they don't.


Chris Debiec

You better be shopping today because if you're not, tomorrow's probably going to be worse.


Robert Hansen

Yeah. Well, by the time people hear this, it'll be long and distant past. We do have the Christmas tree back here. I think this is going to be the final episode of season three, sort of rounding out the season. And so, happy holiday, happy Christmas. Happy Hanukah.


Chris Debiec

To all those who festive.


Robert Hansen

Yes. Which do you celebrate, if any?


Chris Debiec

I was raised Roman Catholic, so I celebrate Christmas.


Robert Hansen

I thought you had some amount of junior on your mom's side?


Chris Debiec

I'll tell you the story. My great-great, either it's two greats or three greats, I forget. They came over on Ellis Island. They met my great, whatever grandfather and great, whatever grandmother, it's my father's side now.


Met in the ghettos of Warsaw, Poland. The father was Jewish, mother was Italian Catholic. They came over on the boat to Ellis Island. They started raising our family as Jewish. Then as the story goes, my great-great, whatever grandfather passed away of a heart attack when his family was just young.


The grandmother decided to change the religion and go back to Italian Catholic. I don't know what that means.


Robert Hansen

Well, I think that makes you Jewish. I mean, it's by lineage.


Chris Debiec

Okay. So my father's side? I thought it was the mother's side?


Robert Hansen

It's the mother's. I thought you said it was your mother?


Chris Debiec

No, it was the father because I had to think back to Poland and it was the father’s side.


Robert Hansen

So, you're not.


Chris Debiec

I am not. No.


Robert Hansen

I too celebrate Christmas. My family is, let's say largely Episcopalian. Although I am definitely agnostic. Not atheist, agnostic. Not one of those people who is defiantly against religion. I just don't know. I'm smart enough to know that I don't know.


Chris Debiec

That's what agnostic is?


Robert Hansen

Agnostic means, I just don't know.


Chris Debiec

Got you.


Robert Hansen

I think a lot of people are agnostic in some form or another because they don't know. They may be going to religious services because that's what they were told to do their entire lives but deep down, they don't really know.


So, I think a lot of people kind of hedge towards agnostic, and very few people by comparison are truly either religious or truly not religious. I think, a minority these days it's kind of interesting. But for me, I think Christmas is kind of like a non-secular holiday.


Despite the fact that it's definitely got Christian and Pagan roots both. I think it got to be my favorite time of year.


Chris Debiec

Yeah. It's festive, it's colorful, there's a lot of music and eating. Sure.


Robert Hansen

Yeah. It's none of that. It's none of those things.


Chris Debiec

Okay. It is for me.


Robert Hansen

I literally could do without any of those things and the whole culture around it and all of the religious ceremonies around it. I could do without any of that stuff, the TV shows, et cetera, all of it with the exception of Diehard, which is definitely Christmas movie.


I love the fact that everyone's in a good mood. It seems like the entire country, at least in the United States, everybody's moods are significantly lifted for about a month. I noticed that. I feel other people's moods, I'm very empathetic about how people see things and how their moods sort of shine outwards.


So, for me it's really nice. I just really like seeing everyone in a good mood and smiling and having a reason to talk to you over whatever crazy Starbucks concoction has made the rounds or whatever. Peppermint Mochas or whatever.


Chris Debiec

No, it's great. I agree 100%.


Robert Hansen

Minus the commercialization component. I'm just not a fan of that but I do think it is worth keeping the traditions anyway, even though I don't personally care one way or another.


Because I think a lot of people find the traditions are the thing that binds them together with their family and their friends and whatever else.


I don't think it's worth throwing the baby out with the bath water in this case even if you don't personally believe in any of those different things. What are you thankful for this year, Chris?


Chris Debiec

Wow. What am I thankful for? Well, I'm thankful for good health. As you get older and aging, I'm always thankful for good health. I'm thankful for good friends. I'm thankful to have you in my life. You've changed my life, so I want to say thank you for that.


Robert Hansen

Of course, and as of you.


Chris Debiec

Well, you're a positive force in my life.


Robert Hansen

Oh, I can say that.


Chris Debiec

Yes, you can.


Robert Hansen

I mean, about you.


Chris Debiec

I can delete this whole thing if you want me to right now. No, I'm thankful to have an opportunity in Texas. You suggested I do something very early when I moved here, and that was to think laterally, and by you doing that, I, I created a whole new path for myself.


Robert Hansen

Why don't you tell us about that?


Chris Debiec

I'm thankful for giving me the idea of thinking laterally. What that means is that for 35 years I've been a film and television producer.


We hustle for a living. We come up with an idea, we create that idea, we try to sell that idea. That's basically three stages of what we do. And then once we sell it, we go out and make it. Once we make it, then we're done and then we go and do the process all over again.


It's a bit of a hustle for everyone that's in my business. But when you said to me, "Think laterally." I all of a sudden thought about what I did during the pandemic.


I have a longstanding relationship with the Cameron family, John David Cameron was the baby brother of James Cameron. When the pandemic struck, you were our CTO of our company. I'm okay to say that, right?


Robert Hansen

Sure. You just did.


Chris Debiec

Okay, there you go. I don't edit for content.


Chris Debiec

I am not used to being in front of the camera. John basically said, "Hey, let's, let's do pandemic response." I jumped in feet first as I usually do with the Cameron's. We created a very, very successful pandemic response company during the pandemic for Hollywood.


We kept probably about... I don't even know what to guess, a hundred thousand people working maybe more.


Robert Hansen

Making TV shows.


Chris Debiec

Making TV shows, making movies, keeping the productions going to being tested three times a week having PPE.


Robert Hansen

Not just the Cameron’s. Lots of different productions.


Chris Debiec

We had 2,230 productions we tested over a year and a half. To me, that's thinking laterally. I'm still in Hollywood, I'm still in the show business, entertainment business, and I may not be producing one show, but I'm producing 2,200 in order for them to keep working.


Not from a creative standpoint, but just operational. I was the Chief operating officer of the Human Health Organization. To me, John Cameron did the same thing you did to me. John's like, "We're going to think laterally, and pivot." I guess, was one of the key words during the pandemic.


Everybody was pivoting to something else because we couldn't really do what we were doing as much as we did. When I moved to Austin and you told me think laterally, and I'm like, "God, that was John."


Robert Hansen

That's John right there.


Chris Debiec

That was John right there. Oh, I'm sorry. Did I say something wrong?


Robert Hansen

I think he's reeling because I don't think I was ever the CTO. I was trying to remember what my title was. I might have been Chief Information Security Officer. He's like, "Don't lie."


Chris Debiec

CIO?


Robert Hansen

CISO, but I had different roles at different times, so I can never quite remember. Kind of depends on which part of the conversation we're talking.


Chris Debiec

If the audience can't see, this is a brave new world. This is very strange. We've done 20 episodes in the studio and this book has never fallen in 20 episodes. I haven't touched the thing since we started. Okay John, we know you're here. It's all good. I'm a little nervous now.


Anyway, so thinking laterally is what you told me to do. Ironically enough, around that same time, I got called by a production to produce a budget and a schedule for a movie called Unbridled Courage. It was a movie that was going to shoot entirely in Texas.


I'm like, "Oh, this is great." We found a studio that's about an hour outside of Austin, which we can shoot in so I can stay at home and just commute in every day. The capital company I worked with said, "We need tax credits. Find out what Texas is offering from a tax and center purpose."


I said, "Okay, great." I met with Stephanie Whelan, who's the Texas Film Commissioner, and she was sad to say that they ran out of all the money in the first quarter of the first year of a two year program. I was like, "Wait a second, this is Texas. I mean, Texas is like one of the biggest states in the country."


Robert Hansen

It's extremely large.


Chris Debiec

It's extremely large, how can you do that? I mean, California is Hollywood. I heard that Georgia made 4.4 billion and has over 85,000 jobs in the entertainment industry. They beat California. I'm like, "Texas has to be in there somewhere, right? She unfortunately said, "No, it's not."


Robert Hansen

So much so, that even companies that were producing here left. It wasn't just that they didn't ever come. They saw the tax incentives elsewhere, and they're like, "Screw it."


Chris Debiec

It wasn't worth it. There was such a small amount to take out of it, and they just went to Georgia or Oklahoma. Oklahoma is kicking our butts, really, unfortunately. The majority of my career, I've been what they call a line producer.


You have above the line, which is creative, actors, directors, producers, writers. Below the line is the crew, the guys who do the work. Grip camera, electric, wardrobe, et cetera, all of that. As a line producer, I sit at the line.


I have to execute what the creative want, but then still run the operation. It's technically speaking, I'm a COO for a movie or a TV show.


I said to Stephanie, I said, "Hey, why don't I just write something up for you guys?" She looked at me and goes, "What?" I said, "Yeah. I mean, I've done a few tax credits and I've done some audits around the country and around the globe. I'll come up with something that might work."


She was like, "Sure, okay. Just understand I'm a political figure and I can't really lobby. It's kind of hard for us to help you with it, but when you have something ready, just come to us and we'll see what we can do." I'm like, "Great. Awesome."


I go back home and first of all, I have to tell the capital company, "Hey, there's nothing here in Texas. We can't shoot here." The capitalist company said, "Well, that's fine. Oklahoma looks like that. Why don't you just go there?"


I'm like, "It's a movie about Texas in the early 1800 and we're going to Oklahoma." Well, you can imagine what that sounds like.


Robert Hansen

There's a bit of a rivalry between the two.


Chris Debiec

Is there? I never would've guessed. It seems like it is. But the writers are now rewriting the script for Oklahoma, and it's really sad because the story about Texas is amazing.


Around that same time, it was March South by Southwest. I met a lobbyist named Kennan Goldman. He's been a guest on your show.


Robert Hansen

Yes. He has.


Chris Debiec

Our show. Kennan, I told him my whole pitch about what I'm trying to do and bringing, more productions, more money, more work, more everything to Texas and he was all in. He said, "Yeah, Chris, that makes sense, let's do it."


Kennan brought on a tax expert and he figured out a way to make this bill relevant. He found a law in the Texas state legislature, a law that actually fits with what we're doing. Then we brought on another set of lobbyists, and then we brought on some human resource experts, some labor experts.


Then all of a sudden, well, you are the one who told me, "Chris, you should do a PAC." I'm like, "What's a PAC." Political Action Committee for those out there.


So, I created something called the Texas Media Coalition. Sounded good, right? I'm a writer as well, so I word-smith a bunch of stuff. I figured out, and I got texasmediatcoalition.org. We have a website. There we go.


Now all of a sudden, I have like eight people, I won't say working for me. We're currently in the fundraising stage. So, hey, anybody out there want to give us some money? The bill has actually been written to a point where we have three state legislatures all vying authorship.


Frankly, we want all of them. I mean, you can have multiple authors on a bill. Technically, from my perspective, I would love as many authors as possible because that way then that means that is how many people support it. That's how many people will want to be a part of it,


Robert Hansen

And help you push it through.


Chris Debiec

And help us push it through because for me personally, I feel that this is the future of Texas. Currently the Grant program, asking for a little bit of money here and a little bit of money there each year, it makes no sense. Lionsgate gave me a lot of great advice.


The CFO of Lionsgate basically said, "We're not going to go to a state unless they have tax incentives." Frankly, they should have them. We're looking to sign lease agreements for up to 10 years if they have a program that shows us sustainable tax credits, because that's how we do it. That's how we work.


Robert Hansen

You and your edits


Chris Debiec

I'm sorry.


Robert Hansen

Is this what you're thankful for? This whole thing is what you're thankful for?


Chris Debiec

I'm thankful for editing and cutting things. Our whole mantra of the bill is to help people. Help Texas. Move Texas forward in what the rest of the world is doing. That's the goal of this. It's called the Texas Media Enticement Program.


That's what we're trying to entice bigger productions to come to Texas. Ideally it's 15 million or more spend, which means that if a production company comes in, spends 15 or more, they go to our bill.


Robert Hansen

Under it goes the other way.


Chris Debiec

Under it goes the other way. Now that 45 million they have, or maybe 100, if they can get that, that exponentially grows and is bigger and will allow many more independent productions to thrive.


Then all the bigger boys, the ones that create all the big jobs, Taylor Sheridan and Paramount Plus, I mean, he's going nuts up there in North Texas. We want to support him and Robert Rodriguez and every other filmmaker out there that wants to benefit from our tax incentives.


Because, unfortunately, it's money that makes the world go around. If you talk to any capital company, any studio, they will say the same thing. If you have tax incentives, we'll consider shooting in your state and bringing our 100 million-dollar TV series to your state.


Robert Hansen

Why is that good for Texas beyond the brain? How do you describe the benefit to lobbyists and lawmakers?


Chris Debiec

It's a trickle-down effect. Imagine the circus comes to town, but our circus is a little different because we need to find housing for everyone.


Anyone that we're bringing in that doesn't live here, we need to find a hotel for them. We need to get rental cars, they need to know where to eat. They need to go to laundromats, they need to go to dry cleaners. They need to go to the grocery stores, the pharmacies.


So, if you have a production crew that is 300 people, which is the norm for budgets, 15 million and plus then all of those people coming in will need to spend money. It boosts the economy like you can't even imagine.


Robert Hansen

Are there stats on that?


Chris Debiec

There are lots of stats on that. Absolutely.


Robert Hansen

If I put like 100 million dollars in, how much ends up back in the economy?


Chris Debiec

Well, it depends on what that $100 million is for. I mean, a budget is about 50 line items. All those line items, they include labor, they include when you're doing construction, lumber. You're not going to bring that from another state.


If you're smart, you're just going to go and get a lumber store and buy a million dollars’ worth of lumber. I've written a check to Home Depot before for a million dollars. I know we do that because that's what we do. Wardrobe, you're going to have to go out and buy clothing and I've had wardrobe budgets anywhere from 100,000 to half a million dollars.


Now, those local stores that we're shopping for this wardrobe are benefiting. Catering, we're going to hire a local catering company, but let's say we bring in a catering company from LA or New York or something, they're still going to have to source food.


Now they're going to HEB, they're going to Whole Foods, they're going to Costco. They're injecting all of this money into the community. That's how the trickle-down effect works.


Same with labor, because in our bill we put a certain percentage that you must hire local labor and you'll get a higher discount. You'll get a higher tax back.


Robert Hansen

Those people spend their own money here in Texas.


Chris Debiec

Correct. Well, that's the point. I mean, we want to give production companies more incentive to hire locally because then all of a sudden, everybody starts moving back to Texas.


I mean, if you want to run the numbers, see how many local Texas sins live in California? How many live in Georgia? How many live in New York and really want to come back? Owen and Luke Wilson, they're in Georgia, but they'd love to come back to Texas.


Robert Hansen

You think that it really is true, that the studios want to be here? It's just that they financially can't support it?


Chris Debiec

I would like to believe so. Sure. I mean, I know Paramount Plus has definitely invested because they have Taylor Sheridan. Robert Rodriguez lives here, Matthew McConaughey lives here.


There's a lot of the stars they want to work with that live here. If they had a production that is based in Texas, but they have to shoot in Oklahoma because there's no incentive, then that will then take away the idea that you have to go to Oklahoma.


Robert Hansen

Does this become a race to the bottom? Do other states start saying, "Okay, I'm just going to give that tax incentive plus another picker?


Chris Debiec

It's competition. It's manufacturing competition. I coined a phrase, media manufacturing sector. What you and I are doing right now, we are part of the media manufacturing sector. We're not getting incentives for it but maybe someday we will.


Robert Hansen

Maybe. It's possible. That's interesting. What do you think of the prospects of the bill? What do you think? Is that 80%, 100%?


Chris Debiec

Interesting.


Robert Hansen

You were going to put money on it in Vegas, what would you do?


Chris Debiec

Well, it's a red or a black situation because a lot of times it goes right down to the wire. I believe in it. My entire lobby team believes in it. Everybody I have spoken to believes in it. I believe in it. I believe in it 100%.


I believe this is the future of Texas in the media manufacturing sector. I would like to say it's higher, above 50%.


Robert Hansen

Well, that's good. Go to Vegas on those odds.


Chris Debiec

Yeah. I go to Vegas with less than that. Are you kidding? Why do you think Vegas exists?


Robert Hansen

Okay. That's a good thing to be thankful for.


Chris Debiec

I'm very thankful to that.


Robert Hansen

Yes. I am thankful because I have seen quite a change in you in the last, call it half year or so since you got to Texas. It's not just this bill. I mean, it's not just this.


I remember you and I had a conversation at one point that went something like, "Texas needs you to be something and only you get to decide whether you're going to be that thing or not."


Just very recently, I feel like this a fairly major shift in you that you seem like you are becoming an actual Texan, whatever that means. If we're good or bad.


Chris Debiec

I need to go get a pair of cowboy boots. That's what I need. Like a nice cowboy hat.


Robert Hansen

It's not about the aesthetic and it's not about the draw or anything like that. It's something about, everybody here is a little bit slower. I don't mean like a non-intelligent, I mean, they just take more care in how they talk about things and how they talk to one another.


That whole process can be a bit cumbersome and annoying to somebody who's a West Coast or East Coast. Let's get deals done right away, type situation.


I've noticed you've kind of calmed down and you've actually gotten more into the culture. I think it's good for you because when I first started hanging out with you long ago now, what is that? close to 10 years now? Something like that?


Chris Debiec

Yeah. At least.


Robert Hansen

I noticed that you seem to be in the culture of Hollywood, a very transactional nature. I recognize that feature in myself from when I was back and doing sales for my own company as a CEO, do a lot of sales. Over 100 enterprise deals just by myself.


I did a lot of sales and selling, and I saw that in you. There was like this piercing through you. What can I get out of you sort of vibe coming from you?


Chris Debiec

Well, 28 years of living in Los Angeles. I mean, the transactional is built in. You've grown up with that.


Robert Hansen

It feels like you've like, shed a layer of your skin or something, or you gotten rid of this thing that was sort of sitting on the outside of you.


Chris Debiec

I did. It feels a lot better ever since you and I had that conversation. I want to live a better life. That's all. I mean, again, it was what I was referring to back in the beginning of this podcast is that, it's a hustle.


You feel like every moment, every second of your life, you have to hustle to try to get to that next stage but here in Texas, people will appreciate who you are and what you do. And they don't care about the hustle.


I mean, they care about working, they care about moving forward and growing, but they want to know more about you. "Let's go play golf. Hey, let's go out to dinner and just hang out. I don't want to talk about work."


I mean, LA, it's like that's all we do is talk about work but here it's a lot different. I'm starting to see that, I'm starting to realize that, and I'm starting to settle into that.


Robert Hansen

I went to lunch with somebody yesterday and I hadn't been to lunch with him in probably two, three months or something.


We had quite a bit to talk about and it was maybe an hour, hour, 15 minutes or whatever and call it 45 minutes to an hour of, it was just him talking about kids and how things are going in the home front and travel and all this other stuff in the last five, 10 minutes. We're like, "Oh, how's work going?"


There was no work to be done there. That's just how it is. I know that I could ask him for favors or get him to do things in a business context, but it literally never came up. There was no ask on other side. Once you have that trusting relationship, obviously, it's so much easier to get things done.


Not that I actually need anything from him. But that's the thing that I think a lot of salespeople miss when they first get to Texas. They're like, sell, sell, sell. It just doesn't work like that here. It's a rude awakening.


Chris Debiec

Yeah. It took me almost a year to figure that out. I’m here now.


Robert Hansen

Better part of a year anyway. I think you've definitely rounded a corner. I'm very thankful for it. I've noticed it.


Chris Debiec

Thank you.


Robert Hansen

I think it's time since we're at end of season three. But also, it has been about a year since we started this. We started early this year, right?


Chris Debiec

March I think. April.


Robert Hansen

Well, technically, I started the LLC about almost exactly a year ago. But you're right. Started maybe six, eight months. Something like that. But given the fact that we're at the end of the year, it's still a good time to do this. A little bit of a retrospective on how things are going. I guess the very first question is, how do you feel things are going?


Chris Debiec

With the podcast? Okay. I have a friend who tells me constantly, “Chris, you value experience over money.” I had to think about that for a second. I thought you know what, she's right. I do.


In my career, 35 years of entertainment, I have literally worked in every position in every format. With a camera, press events without cameras, or cameras that weren't even part of what I was doing but part of something else that somebody else was doing. I literally have done everything you possibly can except a podcast.


Robert Hansen

Learning curve. For me too. I mean, we're learning at the same time.


Chris Debiec

Of course. But when you approached me and said, “I want to do a podcast.” Before you even finished the word, I said, “Yes. Yes, I'm in. I'm in. I've never done one before. So yeah, let's do it.” It took us a while. I mean, it took us a while just to build this.


Robert Hansen

The history behind this shelf here is there's a window right there. I thought it looked a little like we're in a room as opposed to a podcast studio. No, I know exactly what's going on. But you had to have a bit of an illusion. This is more of a refined area. We went back and forth in different credenzas and all kinds of things you could build. I basically settled on a bunch of boxes that we could put together.


Chris Debiec

Yeah, we. It that took me a week to do this. Sure.


Robert Hansen

Because I think people generally put four or five of them together. This is 25 of them. Thank you very much for doing all that work by the way.


Chris Debiec

You're welcome. I would like to know, Robert, the one thing you never told the story is, why this? Why this sheet metal thing?


Robert Hansen

I was looking for something that looks more mechanical and interesting. In hindsight, I'm glad I did it. Because it's big enough that it stands out on its own. We don't have to do any extra decorating really beyond that if we didn't want to. The books are nice aesthetics, etc. But I mean, I think it just stands out nicely. It doesn't fit the branding at all. I think we will probably have to change that.


Chris Debiec

It's pretty cool. The audience won't hear this. But I just want you guys to hear this. It’s like its own special effect. It’s like thunder.


Robert Hansen

It’s also like a guillotine. You got to be really careful. It's super-duper sharp.


Chris Debiec

Yes. I've cut my fingers many times trying to figure out how to hang this thing.


Robert Hansen

Don't tell OSHA. How do you think things are going? You didn’t get to that.


Chris Debiec

Yeah, I didn’t get to that. For me, I love learning. I'm of this mind that I'm going to be learning until I die. I'm going to be learning right until I'm in my grave. For me, I absolutely loved what we did. Because for me, it was a learning experience. Yes, I work with cameras and microphones. Yes, I knew production and all that stuff. But I didn't know this part of it.


Once I figured out how all this technical stuff worked, then all of a sudden, I was like, oh, this is great. Why didn't I do this before? Well Season One, first of all, we were at ible. We were in a studio. They were controlling the technical part of it.


Robert Hansen

Which was probably good since we didn't know anything.


Chris Debiec

Neither of us knew how to do this but now we do. By you giving me permission to do this in my house, I learned so much about the technical side of creating something like this. I have to give credit to Greg Wurth who is Steve Vai's sound engineer.


Robert Hansen

Is he really?


Chris Debiec

He is. He's the one who helped me build this.


Robert Hansen

Wow. Steve Vai is one of the best in the world.


Chris Debiec

He is. Greg is also one of the best sound engineers in the world too. He is. He's amazing. With Greg's help, we built this. How's it going? It's amazing. I'm learning so much about your world.


Because when you first initially approached me, you said, “Chris, I'm going to do a podcast. I'm going to have the conversations that I've had with all of the experts and all the people I've worked with just like at a bar, or a restaurant, or just hanging out. Just talking about what we do.” To me, it's an alien world that I get to learn. I absolutely, positively love doing this podcast.


Robert Hansen

Good. I've gotten three types of feedback so far. They're on different things. A lot of good feedback on business. Specifically people who are either relatively new to business or still trying to figure out what they want to do in their business. Because we've had some pretty good business episodes so far. So that's good. But that is a minority. I would toss that into a side bucket.


The two major pieces of feedback I've gotten are on, ironically, the one episode we did on mental health. I got lot of feedback. I was surprised how much. Just an insane amount. A lot of side chatter coming to me directly.


A lot of people coming to me. “Oh, I didn't know you had struggles. Let me tell you what's going on in my world. We need to go out and have drinks.” That was really great. Because that was one of the reasons I started this. I had a lot of sub reasons for wanting this.


One of them was, I felt if people could hear these conversations for themselves, they would suddenly see the world in a different light. That was really encouraging to me to hear that. Indeed, these fairly young people, in some cases, were coming to me, “Wow, there's a whole bunch of stuff going on in my world. We need to talk.” That was great.


Even other experts came out of the woodwork and said, “Hey, there's some mental models I use. I would like to talk to you about it at some time. Maybe even get one of the guys on the podcast.” That's one.


Then the other major one was around the super technical stuff. Along the lines of what you said. They tend to be totally different people, interestingly, who gave me this feedback. But the people who gave me this other set of feedback. They're like, “I want more of this crazy deep dive technical stuff. Yes, most people are not going to understand it. But I understood it. Or even maybe most of it but maybe not all of it. Yes, keep doing that stuff.”


Weirdly, I think we hit exactly all the notes that I wanted to in the show. There's a lot of crazy technology. Not necessarily computer technology. Some of it is paper sciences or some of it is AI. Which isn't directly security. Or the technical aspects of marketing. Again, not security. But security touches so many things and touches lives in such weird ways. You can't really separate security from a huge chunk of the world. It's just there. It's all over the place.


Chris Debiec

It's breathing too. I mean, you want to be secure and safe. To me security is breathing.


Robert Hansen

It absolutely is. I mean, there's definitely the operational side of security. Protecting bank vaults. I think the feedback I'm getting has been really positive. We're just now starting to get lift on viewership. I expect that to gain a lot of traction over the next handful of months because we have some marketing people working behind the scenes. I think we're in good shape.


The big caveat that I have is, we need a whole bunch more guests. We're going to have to work on that together. Find some interesting people to talk to. Both people we know who we have to travel to as well as people we don't know. We're going to have to make that work out. We'll figure that one out.


Chris Debiec

I have certainly put together a list of all kinds of interesting people. We are going to figure it out.


Robert Hansen

Yeah. I suspect what will happen is, as we get more traction and more of my cohort of friends actually listening to the show as opposed to pretend like they're listening to the show. They'll go, oh, geez, yeah, I need to be on there. Because their friends are listening. It'll happen. Any issues? Any things that you think that we should solve?


Chris Debiec

The technical stuff. It seems like we've encountered one technical problem pretty much every episode. Every time we encounter that, we fix it. Again, it's a learning curve. I want to talk to you more about potentially, I know, this is what you want. In studio people face to face interacting with each other.


Robert Hansen

Got to do it this way. You're going to try to convince me to do Zoom?


Chris Debiec

I understand. Listen, you can't fly to Amsterdam every week. You can't fly to Japan and Australia to find these interesting people.


Robert Hansen

I agree, and I disagree. I mean, obviously, I'm not going to be able to do that. But sometimes they can fly to me. Sometimes it's actually just not that far. I know a lot of people. It doesn't really matter where I go. There's a handful of people in the one city. It's not necessarily as dramatic as it sounds.


Chris Debiec

What do you like about the in-person? Because I've been on a few podcasts that have been remote. They seem pretty cool. They seem okay.


Robert Hansen

I have been on a couple that were okay, that I thought were even well done I would say. One in particular I'm thinking of was quite well done. But in that case, that person had done a ton of research on me ahead of time. They overcame the fact that they didn't really know me. But there's nothing really like just sitting right in front of somebody, looking in their eyes and seeing them shift in their seats.


Chris Debiec

Seeing the fear. It is like, oh my god, I'm on TV. I’m on camera.


Robert Hansen

Even just the fear as I'm asking the question. Quite a few times, I've asked people questions and I can tell they are not prepared for that question. Watching them. You could see their brain ticking away trying to figure out what the right answer is. That gives me the cue that I need to say maybe a couple more sentences. Give them a chance to let their brain catch up and get in front of that question.


I can sense if they're getting uncomfortable. Ooh, this line of questioning isn't quite what I was hoping you would do. Shift to make them comfortable again. My goal isn't to make people comfortable.


But I also don't want them to be completely uncomfortable to the point where they're like game over. Pull the plug. Walk out. In fact, I remember when we were at ible, the nice parts about ible really was that I could see their feet. I could see them tap dancing in their chairs. Or if they're pointing their feet to me or away from me. All the body language things.


I remember I was even telling you at one point, I wish we had a little mirror here so I could at least out of my periphery see people dancing around their chair. Because there's a lot of body language that you see below the table that would be useful to know if someone is getting anxious or tired or interested, engaged.


Chris Debiec

What else have you learned?


Robert Hansen

All kinds of things. I learned stuff every episode. Which is great. A lot of it I learn in the process of doing the research for the episode. It's probably between three and six hours per episode of research. Today, for this one, it was three hours.


Chris Debiec

With me?


Robert Hansen

Yeah. To get all this together. To think through it. Well, some of it is not direct research. Some of it's just thinking through the flow of the questions and the notes that I want to hit. Even if I skip around a little bit, at least I have a sense of where I want to go in the conversation. Yeah, I take this very seriously.


That's one of the reasons I wear a jacket. I want the guests to know that I take them seriously. I take this seriously. I like to have fun and joke around, obviously. But it's not at their expense.


I'm not trying to make a fool of them or treat them with any disrespect even if I totally disagree with what they're saying. Which has happened in a couple of cases. I think I learn stuff every single episode. A lot of it is about their job that you wouldn't know unless you're doing their job. You wouldn't know unless you actually spent time behind the keyboard doing their specific thing.


Even if I thought I know the story, sometimes I'll hear a different version of it when I'm sitting here. I'm like, wow, I did not actually know that specific, tiny little detail. Or even some cases I was there and I didn't know the detail. I'm like, oh, you saw it from a different perspective which is great. I thought that was good. But also to some extent, we're working through a list of people I know. Not completely.


There's some people that I did not know before we started doing this podcast. They've been great. Absolutely great. But the ones that I know, I think it's useful to have you hear from their perspective some of the things that we have done together, me and the other guests.


Because I suspect that a lot of people are going to look at me and go, “Who is this guy? Where does he come from? Should I believe anything this guy says? Is there any credibility here whatsoever?”


I think it was really good. Especially in the case of, let's say, Alex Romero would be a great example. Where he basically said, “Yeah, you were the guy who got the policy changed at the Pentagon. We didn't have that policy. Now we do because you hacked the Pentagon.” Those types of stories. It's hard to tell that story and have it be believable. I could say it.


But unless you hear it from the guy who is like, “Yeah. That is what happened.” Or my conversation with James Flom, which I know is going to be difficult for a lot of people to process because there's a lot in there.


But he basically said, “Yeah, we accidentally hacked into China.” If I tell you that story it's hard to process unless you're hearing it from someone else's voice. We're both nodding and going, “Yeah, that is what happened.” Maybe the details are slightly different here and there but the collective story is the same.


Some of it isn't so much me learning as making sure I'm setting the stage so that when I talk about more complex things, you, the audience is not looking at me with question marks. Is this real? Has all this stuff actually happened? Because it just seems incomprehensible. Especially if I have to rattle it off. People will bring me into meetings. “Oh, Robert, tell them about your history.”


What am I going to do? Rattle off a CV of all these crazy things that have happened. It just sounds ridiculous. Maybe they'll believe me anyway. But it sounds ridiculous without the context. Some of it isn't learning. Some of it is setting the stage for a more comprehensive discussion about what I want to talk about. Does that make sense?


Chris Debiec

Yeah. 100%


Robert Hansen

It is credibility. It technically is a logical fallacy. To some degree, trust me. I'm an expert in one area so you should trust me in another. Or I'm an expert at this one thing so trust my opinion on the next thing. Technically it's a logical fallacy. But at some point, you have to understand that there is a lot of context behind what I think and what I'm saying. I'm not just coming out of this totally blind.


Chris Debiec

No. I think the audience understands that and sees that too. Because your questions are logical and informative. You want to know what your guest is talking about. Your guest is an expert. That's what I love about this show. We bring on experts in other avenues. Maybe you're not an expert in mental health. But our guest is.


Just like Jake Moilanen. Oh my God, that was the best episode. You guys have to watch that one about crypto. About how the government could potentially take it over. Digital currency. I learned so much during that episode. I had my notes and my pen. I couldn't stop writing.


Robert Hansen

Yeah. I'll bring him back at some point because I think he was a little confused on what I wanted to talk about with him. There's a couple of guests that I want to bring back. You're the very first guest I brought back twice, by the way.


Chris Debiec

Thank you. Oh, wow.


Robert Hansen

I also want to bring back Morgan Warstler. There's a handful of others I’d like to bring back. Jack Henneman when he gets further in his podcast. He's talking about the history of the Americas. When it gets to the point where he starts talking about the formation of the country itself, I'd like to bring him back to talk through some of that. Because I think there's a lot of misunderstanding about how the laws were actually originally enacted. The mood of the country at the time.


I think there's a lot of cool things we can revisit with these guests who are obviously more than just a one trick pony. You got a lot of those things. You're not going to get the bulk of their knowledge out of them in one or two hours or three hours. You're not going to do that.


Chris Debiec

Some of your guests. I mean, we could probably have 10 hour conversations technically. Because they just are so full of information.


Robert Hansen

Jack is definitely one of them. We discussed issues. I think we should keep doing this. What do you think?


Chris Debiec

Yeah. Oh, my God. Of course, we should.


Robert Hansen

If you said no, game over.


Chris Debiec

I do want to experiment maybe with potentially a different background sometime. I mean, we got over 30 episodes in the can.


Robert Hansen

If you feel like trying to move this thing around, disassembling it.


Chris Debiec

I mean, I don't want to disassemble it. We can still use it. But get rid of some of the books and put up some, if you're interested in sponsoring, hey, we can give you a prime location here.


Robert Hansen

Exactly. Okay, good. Well, we can talk about all that. The one thing I wanted to talk about today, more for the audience, not necessarily for you, is something I've been talking about for a while amongst my other friends.


It is something I refer to as being cautious of can't. The word can't, or cannot, or could not, and all the variants thereof. I think this word is very dangerous. Because it basically informs your opinion before you even really logically think through what you're even saying.


Once you utter the words, I can't, you've basically just told your brain it is impossible. But it isn't impossible in many, many, many cases. I wanted to spend a little time enumerating that and thinking through it a little bit with you. See where we land.


Before we get too far, I want to admit that I am the first to say that I use can’t in incorrect contexts quite often. When we were talking before the show, I said, “This will be my Christmas gift to my audience because I can't give them an actual present.” The word can't.


In that context, what I actually mean to say is, well, there's two ways I could do this. I could spend an insanely crazy amount of money just sending gifts all over the place. But then I would have to hack everybody to get their addresses. There's legal ramifications in doing that. It's quite expensive. Therefore I can’t. Or at least I can't see myself doing it.


What I really mean is the fiduciary and legal implications of it are too great for the upside. I can't, being a shorthand for saying I can't see the financial upside in doing whatever I'm talking about. Right. This is one I'm going to ask you. Say a couple of sentences in Mandarin.


Chris Debiec

I don't know how to speak Mandarin.


Robert Hansen

Yeah. Correct. That's correct. Because you could have said, I can't. But the actual answer is you're ignorant of the language.


Chris Debiec

I'm educated.


Robert Hansen

But if I sat you down with Duolingo or a teacher who understood Mandarin, I bet inside of a week, you'd be rattling off a handful of sentences to me.


Chris Debiec

Yes. Agreed.


Robert Hansen

What we really mean when we say I can't in that context, this is used all the time, especially children. They will say, “I can't do that.” It's like, well, I bet you can. You just don't know how yet. We'll walk you through the process of doing it. I can't read this, yet.


The answer is yet. Or I can't lift this thing. Well, give it a year. That'll be cakewalk. You'll be lifting that thing in no time. Especially young adults and kids. When I hear them use that word, I'm like, you can't yet just because you don't know how. Would you like to learn how? If the answer is no, great, stay ignorant, or stay weak. But don't think for a second it's because it can't be done. It can be done. Any feelings about that one?


Chris Debiec

No. I agree. 100%. I mean, I use the word can’t all the time. But I never really think of the context I put it in.


Robert Hansen

I think it's important to be careful of the words you use and thoughtful of when you use them. What you mean when you say when you use them. Otherwise, you're just rattling off. I have all kinds of malapropism. I mess up my words constantly. I'm not an idol in this regard.


But I do think it's important to notice when I'm using certain words. Because that means things. Those things can be interpreted in certain ways. If I say something can't be done, it better not be possible. Otherwise, I'm lying to somebody. It's like, well, it can be done. I just don't think you should.


Chris Debiec

Right. I have an example of this. When I worked with Jim. James Cameron. Jim hates people telling him I don't know. Those three words. I don't know. He pulled me aside. We were down in the Bahamas doing testing some submarines. He pulls me aside and says, “Chris, I never want to hear you say I don't know. I never want to hear those words out of your mouth.”


I said, “Okay, Jim. If I don't know something, then how would you like me to respond?” He goes, “Chris, if you don't know something, what you're going to do is you're going to tell me how you're going to find out. If I say, ‘What time does the ship pull into port?’ Jim, at this point, I have to say I don't know. But I'm going to go find out.”


He hates the, I don't know then period. Stop. The end of the sentence. If you don't know, go find out. Go fix it. Go figure it out. Go do it on your own. When you say I don't know, when you stop, then he doesn't think you even have a clue on what you're doing. It's very strange.


Robert Hansen

I can see his perspective on that. If you say I don't know and there is no then follow up about what to do next, then he has to micromanage you. He prefers you to be a self-starter.


Chris Debiec

Yeah. If you say, “Jim, I don't know. But let me go find out right now.” He'll just look at you. At first he'll be like, “Why don't you know?” But then he'll give you a little bit of slack with that. You go find out, come back and tell him much what you need to know. Very similar to the word can't. I can't do that. I actually need to catch myself.


With the podcast, you asked me some of the problems. Some of the issues we had. There were multiple issues where you have asked me to do something. Then I say, “Oh, I can't do that.” Then you asked me, “Why?” Then I'm like, wait a second. I can do this. I just didn't know how to answer you at that exact moment. In a way, you almost have to think about instead of saying can't, you don't want to say can’t.


You are like, “Right now, I don't know if I can. But let me work on it.” You and I have had that a couple of times with various audio problems, various video problems, editorial cuts, whatever we're doing. You've actually taught me to not say the word can't anymore. Just let me work on it.


Robert Hansen

It's funny because I don't think we've ever actually talked about this before.


Chris Debiec

No, we never did. I got your emails though. I'm like, oh my god Robert is pissed. Oh God, help me. Oh, please don't yell at me again.


Robert Hansen

I'm such a draconian. I remember this one moment that really opened my eyes to this whole concept of can't. This is early on when I was learning how to shoot. I'd actually gotten fairly good already at that point.


Even to the point where I had already passed something called DP2, Defensive Pistol 2, with this navy seal named Jeff Gonzales. He's an insanely good teacher. He just doesn't care at all about you as a person in regards to his class. He will fail you.


He used to be a Navy SEAL instructor. He failed Navy SEALs for a living. You failing his class means nothing to him at all. He doesn't care. It's hard to get over that. It's working with him, or maybe even working against him in some ways to get through it. But I remember there was this one problem I was having. It was such a bad problem. I couldn't figure out at the time how to get past this. I would shoot just fine a string of 10, 15 rounds then I'd miss once. Then I'd miss 10 more times.


It's like what is going on. It doesn't matter how much I practice. Doesn't matter how many times I go in. My shooting is perfect, perfect, perfect. Or as near perfect as I could shoot anyway. Then all of a sudden, it would just fall down right there at the end. It was very frustrating. He was walking by me one day going the opposite direction. He's like, “Oh. Are you going to pass this thing I got coming up?”


I think he was just expecting me to say, “Yeah, I got it,” over his shoulder, as he was walking by. I said, “No, honestly, I don't think I'm going to pass. And I don't know why. I can't figure it out.” He stopped dead in his tracks. He was just about to open this door to leave. He stopped in his tracks, turned around very slowly.


He's like, “What's the issue?” And I'm like, “I pull the trigger, everything’s going well, and then it just suddenly drops off.” He's like, “You need to stop thinking about the next round when you're shooting this round or thinking about the past round when you're shooting this round. Just think about the round you're shooting. If you can do that, you'll be fine.” And he walked away.


I'm like, “Okay, I'll give that a try.” I get in there. Yeah, I'd miss one round. And then I very heavily thought like, “Just pretend like I'm starting from scratch, pretend like there's not a single round on range and I'm pulling the trigger for the very first time.” And all of a sudden, it was cured.


I was perfect, exactly where I should be. Then the next time I took his test, I got 100%. So that was a tool that I was missing. That was the Mandarin that I hadn't learned. There was that thing that just hadn't been bestowed upon me at that time.


Had I had the right tools, I would have been able to do that much earlier. I think that's what this is. I think knowing what can't is and isn't and what it really means is one of those crazy tools that can help you unlock a big chunk of how you think about the world.


So many people are locked up in thinking about what they can't. It's like they're terrified of the world. So let's move on to the next one.


Chris Debiec

Well, let me finish that thought real quick.


Robert Hansen

Yeah, sure. I didn't realize there's more.


Chris Debiec

Oh, no, no. I wrote a bill for the Texas State Legislature.


Robert Hansen

You sure did.


Chris Debiec

I'm a film and television producer. I didn't say I can't do that. I said, “I'm going to do this.” It took me a while, but I figured it out. What you were referring to, what Jeff, the advice he gave you was, be present. Be in the moment. And just think about what is happening today.


Think about what's happening right now. What's that next thing within the next 10 seconds you're going to do? And how is that going to change your life or not changing life. Or just normal, everyday stuff. In your case, you had to be present and forget about everything else you did in the past and just do this one now starting over again.


I think there's a lot of us that have problems with that. I used to have problems with being present all the time. I used to think about, “Where am I going in the future? What's next week? What’s a month? Oh my god, do I have retirement? Oh my god, what's happening in five years?”


Why don't you worry about what's happening right now and what's going to happen in the next hour then tomorrow? In your case, I think that's what you did. You fixed it by just being present, being in the moment and knowing that whatever happened in the past is now in the past. Learn from it and move on.


Robert Hansen

Yeah, I totally agree. The next one is, I see this fairly frequently. You'll see somebody who's languishing in a dead end job or has no job or whatever. And you'll say like, “Get up and get a job.” They’re like, “I can't.” But they obviously can. Obviously, they can.


Other people do it. And they're not more qualified, they're not smarter or faster or better or better looking or better dressed or anything, any metric that you might think might matter. They just do it.


That one I chalk up to unwillingness. A lot of people just don't want to do something. So they say, “I can't.” as a replacement word. And then they believe it. It’s like, “Well, I have to stay here. I can't go out. People will see me, and I feel disheveled.”


You can go out, and you don't look disheveled. You're fine. You'll comb your hair and put on a nice shirt. You'll be fine. It's anxiety about the world and about what's next. Some of it might be manufactured just like pure laziness, “I prefer not to.”


After a while, that laziness turns into something else. It turns into fear of what's out there, that anxiety and that unwillingness. What do you think?


Chris Debiec

Yeah, no, I agree with you.


Robert Hansen

Do you ever have that?


Chris Debiec

Yeah, all the time.


Robert Hansen

Do you ever have anxiety about going out? Well, you mingle well.


Chris Debiec

I'm a great networker. But I mentally prepare for going out. I mentally prepare for going into this meeting. I meditate, but my meditation isn't what other people would equate to meditating.


I'll be on my computer or have a notebook. I will imagine what's going to happen. Let's say we had this big meeting. We called it the meeting of the five families, which was basically all the major studio players in the state of Texas.


We were explaining the bill. We were going over it. We need their support, et cetera, et cetera. But before I went into that meeting, I'm sitting on my couch with my notebook. I'm like, “What do I want to happen in this meeting? How do I see this meeting?”


Then all of a sudden, in my mind's eye, I am in the meeting. I am feeling, who said this? Who said that? They want this, they want that. How do I respond? Do I not respond? Do I have someone else to respond?


I'm playing a scenario in my head to what I'm about to experience. And that's how I prepare to go out. When you call me up to do this podcast, I'm not prepared. I gave you an idea like, “Hey, why don't I be on the podcast?” I thought you were going to just talk by yourself.


Robert Hansen

I was at first, and then you convinced me by just proposing it.


Chris Debiec

Yeah, well, I proposed it. But I didn't prepare for it. But here we are.


Robert Hansen

Yeah, well, here we are. I think being adaptable and rolling with whatever punches the world throws your way. One door closes, another one almost always opens up. Or maybe even multiple open up because you are so locked into your job or whatever you get laid off.


All of a sudden, the world is a very different place. You're not looking at it through the lens of, “I'm just going to get up and brush my teeth and do the thing.” Now, there's hundreds of people you need to go talk to and go meet and go find out what they're up to and network and find that next gig.


I remember I was at a conversation with a very close friend of mine. She was going through a bit of a rough patch at work. And I'm like, “Well, I have a feeling they're going to lay you off or fire you or something. You'd better start looking.”


She said she couldn't. It was too much. There's too much going on or whatever I'm like, “Well, you can do whatever you want. I'm just telling you you should.” And there was a hard, “I can't.”


Then all of a sudden, the bad thing happened and made it so much more difficult as opposed to having that four or five months that she saw it coming, that I saw it coming, that she could have reacted.


I really think the more you remove that word can't, that would have opened up for her months of time horizon if she had played her cards right. For you, it opens up networking possibilities.


For other people, it's going to open up a new relationship that they would never have met because they'd never stepped outside their home or whatever. So getting outside that can't barrier I think is really critical.


Chris Debiec

Well, you will have to put yourself out there, too. I was in Atlanta this weekend, and I went to visit my friend Ray. Ray's in a bit of a slump. He's in a slump right now.


He and I were just talking about getting out, meeting new people, trying different things, opening new doors. And I introduced him to my friend Vince. My friend Vince is in production, but he also does real estate. He also does rehab.


All of a sudden, Ray does rehab, Vince does rehab. I said, “Hey, you guys should do a rehab show.” And they're both like, “Hey, we should do a rehab show.” And then I take Ray to meet my friend Mary. Mary I went to high school with, “Hey Ray, meet Mary. You live in the same town. You guys should get together.”


Mary is doing background work on a lot of movies and TV shows, and she's loving it. She wants to get involved in the circus that me and Ray are part of. I said, “Ray, why don't you work with Mary? Maybe you guys could do something together.”


Then all of a sudden, it was like a cloud was lifted over. He says like, “Oh my god, Chris, you've inspired me so much. Because before I was just living in my own head in the can't like, ‘I can't do this.’ I'm so busy that I can't try anything new.”


Well, you should try new things. The word can't, now that we're having this conversation, is a deterrent with life if you want to move on. So I love that you're talking about the word can’t.


Robert Hansen

There's a dark side though.


Chris Debiec

There's always a dark side.


Robert Hansen

Well, I think this is worth talking about. If I were to say take the inside of your wrist and put it on the back of your shoulder or something, most people would say, “I can't.”


Well, the dark side is I've seen it happen in jujitsu. Someone got their arm folded completely in the wrong direction. I was on the other side of the classroom. I saw what was happening. I was nowhere near close enough to stop it. But I did see it, and it was very gruesome.


If I were to say, “Do that.” and you say, “I can't.” what you really mean is you're unwilling but also for good reason. Everybody has to have their boundaries. You’ve got to say like, “I'm not willing to hurt myself to appease you or do this random thing.”


You say that, but I think a lot of people are scared of putting up personal boundaries. They're scared of their personal ethics. They either just are going to give all of themselves or get none of it. They're unable to have a clear delineation of where they should be giving of themselves.


It makes sense to say, “I can't.” in that context although it's probably the wrong word. It should be, “Fuck off.” Or, “I'm not going to do that because that would hurt. No, I'm not interested in pain or whatever.”


Chris Debiec

There's a physic real world why you should say the word can't, “I can't eat this mug.”


Robert Hansen

Why? Yes, of course, you can.


Chris Debiec

Well, I'm not going to eat this mug.


Robert Hansen

I don't think you can digest it.


Chris Debiec

There you go. I can't digest it.


Robert Hansen

Okay. Again, on the dark side. If I were to say, “Go rob that liquor store.” a lot of people would just say, “I can't. I can't do that.” And that makes sense because what they're really trying to say is, “I see that there's real legal or personal safety issues with regard to what you're asking. I'm going to go to jail. I'm going to get hurt or killed or whatever if I go do this thing.”


But instead of saying, “I am not going to go to jail for you, I'm sorry.” or whatever, they use the word, “I can't.” But obviously, one can. Otherwise, their friend wouldn't have asked him to go rob a liquor store with them. So it clearly can be done. And people do it all the time.


That's a weird word in my mind because it seems like it's saying something opposite of what really is possible. So the reason why this is very important, a little bit less on the dark side, a very good friend of mine went through urban escape and evasion training.


Basically, they took him and dropped him off in a random city. You have to evade captors in like an adult Capture the Flag thing or hide and seek or whatever. So he had to do crazy things and run around and put on disguises. Afterwards, I asked him, “What was it like? What were your major takeaways?”


He’s like, “All laws are just things on paper. When you really need to get away, you'd be surprised how fungible law really feels. It's just a guidance that you can choose to ignore or not. The only reason you might pay attention to it is because a cop might be looking at you and pay attention to you more than they might otherwise or something.”


That was a really interesting thing because all of a sudden, the concept of no trespassing is just, of course, you can. Most people are like, “I can't go in there.” You know you can. You probably shouldn't if you want to stay on the correct side of the law.


When you're in those very dire situations where you actually are trying to escape somebody or trying to do something a superhuman almost, there's this whole level of society that just evaporates.


It happens in times of war, for instance, or even in domestic abuse type situations where all the normal social decorum goes out the door. You can do unhuman things in the name of safety or in the name of personal security or whatever.


Chris Debiec

Sure.


Robert Hansen

I think that's really interesting. Makes me think. Another example of this, I was talking to a friend who worked for this company. You'll figure out what the company is, at least tangentially.


A two-car team came in, and they smashed through a gate. They all piled in. So that's about eight people or so. Then there was an exterior wall, and they had a sledge hammer. They smash the window. They reach around, they open the door. They're not worried about the alarms going off. It doesn't matter.


They run into an interior door. There was a normal wall, Sheetrock thing. They sledgehammer through there, reach around, open the door, and then they were in an interior office that had a safety glass with the cross hatching on it.


They smash that with the sledgehammer reaching out over the last door. And now they're in the datacenter room. Then they took a drill and drilled out the one machine that they’re after. Only the one machine, they weren't after anything else. And then they ran out of there.


That was a very sensitive system that they left with. The photos of this thing are fairly amazing. But they were never caught, of course. I guarantee you that eight-man team didn't walk into that thinking they couldn't.


If your adversaries are thinking about the world the way that those people are thinking about the world, and you aren't able to think like that, that's a big problem. That's a big gap between the good guys and the bad guys.


I think there's something to be said about having personal ethics and having a sense of what you will and won't do. But you have to understand that the adversary doesn't feel that way. Or at minimum, they might have their own set of ethics that just are against yours.


They might say, “Well, you're killing my people.” And I'm like, “Well, you're killing white people.” Otherwise, they're exactly the same in every other way. But they're in conflict. So your rules and your laws just don't matter to them.


If you think about the world a little bit more like that, where really, truly anything's possible, you're going to see the world in a much more, I think, correct light, the way things actually are. It's not necessarily happy. It's not necessarily rainbows and unicorns, but it is how the world works.


Chris Debiec

Right. We live in a civilized society though.


Robert Hansen

Do we? I don't think so.


Chris Debiec

It's more civilized than it was with technology.


Robert Hansen

I think there's certainly pockets of the world that are much more civilized. I think this house, you don't have anyone running through with guns or whatever. But I think there's definitely areas of the world that are completely uncivilized. They're war-torn, and anything goes. That's just how it works.


Maybe they have their own social order of some sort that they impose. But by your standards, by modern Western standards is nowhere near civilized. And that’s the world that I think we really live in.


It was once upon a time that these distant wars didn't matter. But now they're spilling over into the public internet. And we now have to deal with them everywhere. Our financial systems are intertwined. Our banking systems all talk to one another. We use the same oil, we have the same grain. You can't really pretend like that doesn't matter.


Chris Debiec

So this is the dark side of can’t?


Robert Hansen

It is.


Chris Debiec

Yeah.


Robert Hansen

It is. Because if you think about can’t being a word that your enemy will use, you're sorely mistaken. So you'd better start thinking more on the side of everything is possible.


Your morals might stop you. And that might be why you win, by the way. Your morals might be the reason you win. But you can't not predict what your enemy is going to do and survive, you have to think past them. So you have to be thinking like them, which means you can't pretend like we live in a civilized society.


Chris Debiec

“I can’t.”


Robert Hansen

“Well, I’ll not be successful anyway.”


Chris Debiec

Yeah, there you go.


Robert Hansen

It's funny, I do meet a lot of people who would prefer not to know. So I start talking about things like, “Oh, geez. I bet you’re a lot of fun at parties.” They bail. And it's true.


I don't think I am particularly fun at parties unless I'm with people who are much more prone to having more intellectual conversation. Not because I care one way or another about how intellectual you are, just I think the world is a very interesting place and I think it's worth exploring.


Chris Debiec

Absolutely.


Robert Hansen

Yeah. I think one example where I can remember a physical thing that stopped me, can’t, was one time I had this really gnarly flu, unbelievably bad. I was in bed, and I needed to call work to tell them I wasn't going to come in to work. It was before the days of cell phones or at least not big, old bricks of cell phones.


I fell on the floor and crawled from my room through the living room and over to where the phone was. It was up on a high table thing. So I had to crawl up onto it. I told them, “I can't even walk.” And I was absolutely serious.


I could not, at that moment, get on my feet. For whatever reason, I was so sore. My body just didn't want to work properly. I was dragging myself. It was really bad. That was one of the killer flus, and it was horrible.


I think there are situations where your body's just betraying you, and you can't. It’s true, and I don't want to discount that. A lot of people at home might be going, “No, no, I really have this real affliction that makes me not able to do something.”


Understood. But that's probably not stopping you from the rest of your life. It's probably stopping you from one small aspect of your life or only temporarily stopping you. And you need to be thinking past that.


Chris Debiec

I'm inspired by people that have disabilities that are in wheelchairs that can't walk. I saw a news report with a gentleman who uses a tube to blow air into his wheelchair to allow him to move because nothing else on his body works.


And the artwork that he produced was awe-inspiring. I was like, “I can't do that. I can't even get close. See? Yeah, I can’t do that.” I could do that. But because he's doing that with such a limited capacity, to me, it just is one of the most inspiring things I've ever seen.


So if I say, “Yes, I can't do that.” But I say it with respect because I can't be him. I can't be you. I don't want to be you.


Robert Hansen

Yeah, well, no one's asking anyone to be someone else. This is what the Navy SEALs learned about everybody. They learned that everyone had their limits and another 20%. Whatever they thought their limits were, there was still this huge amount beyond where they thought their breaking point was.


Everyone's like, “I can't do this. I can't lift this log for one more second.” Well, yeah, you can't. You can probably do it for 20 more seconds. It'll hurt. It'll hurt like nothing's ever hurt before.


I like to do this little test. Take an ice bowl, and you just shove your hand in there. It has ice water. And it hurts. It really hurts. Most people, children, for instance, they will pull their hand out in a second or two. It's like, “Wow, that hurts.” Yeah, it actually hurts.


Adults without thinking about it will naturally want to pull their hands out in like five to 10 seconds. But if you can do it for a minute, just one minute, your hand’s not going to fall off. You're not going to get hypothermia or anything or frostbite.


It is incredibly painful. But yet, you can just decide that you're willing to put up with it. You can just as an experiment, “I'm just going to do it.” And that's what I'm talking about. That's that level beyond the pain.


That's like that point at which you're like, “I can do so much more than what society has told me I can do or my friends told me I can do or my awful parents are telling me I'm capable of or whatever.”


You can do this amazing amount, just one step beyond where everyone thinks you're capable of at all times. You always have this extra reserve in there. And people just don't really want to tap it for whatever reason.


Some of it is laziness, I'm sure. Some of it is purely just being afraid of what happens if they actually do make that big move and ask their boss for a raise or try to get another cooler job or try that new crazy whatever.


Chris Debiec

Have you ever tried cryotherapy?


Robert Hansen

I personally have not.


Chris Debiec

I have. I've done cryotherapy several times. The can't factor is a huge thing because it's minus 220 degrees, and you're in a sound booth. They are playing music inside. You go in, and you have ear muffs, gloves, booties, little underwear type things. But your skin's exposed.


Your legs are exposed. Your chest is exposed, your arms are exposed, and your face is exposed. You go in there. And when you go into this cryo chamber, you immediately start, “I can't do this. I can't do this.” But you can, and you can do it for a minute. I think it's like a minute and 20 seconds before you get skin damage.


First time I did it, 20 seconds is all I could do. And I'm like, “I can't do this.” I ran out of the booth. It's an easy exit.


Robert Hansen

Was it a frozen shed?


Chris Debiec

No, it wasn't a frozen shed with a padlock on it. “So you can go nowhere, boy.” No. I did the first 20 seconds. Then I came back out. And I'm like, “You know what? I can do this.” My brain was telling me I can't, “You can't do this, Chris. You have to get out of here. You're going to hurt yourself.” But in an actual way, I could.


I did cryotherapy for about three or four weeks. I tore my ACL joint, my shoulder. The doctor actually said cryotherapy will help that. I was like, “Okay.” By the time I was done with those two or three weeks, I did the max. I was in there for a minute and 20 seconds.


I almost could have stayed in longer. But the alarm goes off and says, “Get out, get out.” because they don't want you to hurt yourself.


Robert Hansen

They need an ejection seat.


Chris Debiec

Once you overcome the word can't, then anything is possible. That's what I learned.


Robert Hansen

This is that Jeff Gonzalez moment, I think, for a lot of people. You get to decide, are you going to take this tool and run with it? Or are you not?


Chris Debiec

Yeah, choice is an amazing tool. Choice is like one of the few tools that you can choose.


Robert Hansen

Anything you'd like to tell the listeners as we egress out from 2022 and season three?


Chris Debiec

Yeah. Well, just stay true to yourself. Believe. It's all the quirky, cheeky stuff. Be happy. It's not as bad as you think. That's the one thing I've been learning. My life goes through peaks and valleys, just like everybody else does.


The experience I have with you and this podcast and the education I've had with all of these wonderful people we brought on, I feel like I was in college. I feel like it was in school.


Every time I sit in the control room watching the monitor with my little notebook taking notes for marketing clips, I feel like I'm taking a class. So watch The RSnake Show if you want to learn something. Just learn. Keep learning. Don't ever stop.


That's what I take going into the new year. Next year is going to be a great year, I think. Because I can do it. I can do whatever I'm putting my mind to. The bill I'm working on has been taking up pretty much all my time. My friend Melissa tells me it's a hobby because I'm not getting paid for it.


I'm like, “Yeah, well. Yet, exactly. Have faith.” That's the other thing. Have faith. Believe in you, believe in hope, believe in whatever you're doing. And that’s all I got for this.


Robert Hansen

Well, the one thing I would say is don't start a podcast with someone who's never done it before.


Chris Debiec

Oh, really?


Robert Hansen

No, I'm just teasing.


Chris Debiec

By the way, the studio is rentable. If you guys want to do a podcast, let me know.


Robert Hansen

I have really enjoyed this. And I think if I'm going to leave anybody with something going into the next year, it's push yourself. Try something new. Because there's so much interesting things out there in the world that just need to get done.


It's funny all the times people told me that I can't, “It can't be done. No one's ever done that before. No, you can't do that.” I've proven them wrong every single time. So I know firsthand what's possible. And I know if you believe it's possible out there, you're probably right. You just need to actually apply yourself and do it.


Chris Debiec

Yeah. Look at us. You never did a podcast before. I never did a podcast before. And we’re in episode 37 or something. 11 and 33 I think or something. Whatever.


Robert Hansen

Well, I've enjoyed this a lot. Happy Thanksgiving.


Chris Debiec

Happy Thanksgiving to you as well. And to the audience.


Robert Hansen

Yeah, exactly. Thanks, Chris.


Chris Debiec

You're welcome, Robert. Thank you.


No Transcripts Are Available Yet

Comments

مشاركة أفكارككن أول من يعلِّق.

THE RSNAKE

STORE

Show your support by getting yourself a new t-shirt, hoodie or any of our products available in the store!

bottom of page