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ANARCHO-CAPITALISM, COMMUNISM, UBI AND ECONOMICS

April 20, 2022

S01 - E10

RSnake takes on some meaty topics such as anarcho-capitalism, UBI, Keynesian vs Austrian economics, and the future of social media with Morgan Warstler. RSnake also explored some of Morgan's ideas around stopping Communist Party aggression, economic pressure points that Texas could leverage to exert it's dominance on the world stage as well as how Morgan pitched specific interpretations of the constitution and breaking up Washington DC to Donald Trump at the Oval Office. Errata: RSnake and Morgan were trying to name Timur Kuran in the section about Preference Falsification.

Photo of Morgan Warstler
GUEST(S): 

Morgan Warstler

VIDEO TRANSCRIPT

Robert Hansen

For my last podcast of season one, my interlocutor is Morgan Warstler. Morgan is the CEO of GovWhiz and is a storied entrepreneur and political lightning rod of too much renowned to do justice. We take on some of the meaty topics such as anarchical capitalism, UBI, Kenzian versus Austrian Economics and the future of social media.


We also explored some of his ideas around stopping Communist Party aggression, economic pressure points that Texas could leverage to exert its dominance in the world stage. As well as how Morgan pitched specific interpretations of the Constitution and breaking up Washington D.C to Donald Trump at the Oval Office.


We will no doubt need to have Morgan back at some point because there's just simply too much to discuss with him. But for today, please enjoy my conversation with Morgan Warstler. Hello and welcome to the RSNAKE Show today with me Morgan Warstler. How are you, sir?


Morgan Warstler

Hi, Rob.


Robert Hansen

So Morgan, you are possibly one of my favorite guests for all kinds of reasons I've saved. Let's say the best for last here. This is the last episode of season one. You're the 10th episode. One of the things I think is interesting about you in particular is you're probably one of the most intelligent people I've run up against. All right?


And that is definitely saying something. That is I hang out with some very intelligent people. All sort of ridals, but they're very articulate. They have a lot of knowledge, but you just seem to be this wealth, this wellspring of knowledge that I just don't typically run up against. It's a different type of information that I don't get from anywhere else.


You should be proud of that because I think it's actually pretty remarkable. I'm online a lot. You think I'd see a lot, but with you, it's always sort of a wellspring of information.


Morgan Warstler

I'm extremely online.


Robert Hansen

So, your background is debate, political science, philosophy. You're an entrepreneur and an economist.


Morgan Warstler

Well, I'm not an economist, but I'm a hobbyist


Robert Hansen

You certainly play one on TV.


Morgan Warstler

I like to talk about economics quite a bit.


Robert Hansen

You got to put this microphone right there, sir. I know you do. But also a lot of the stuff you talk about is economics based. You spend a lot of time focused on that.


Morgan Warstler

Almost everything I think about is through...


Robert Hansen

The lens of economics?


Morgan Warstler

Yeah. Even if it's software design or architecture or anything. Policy. It's all through how I think the economy actually works versus what everybody talks


Robert Hansen

About. That's interesting. So, how did you land on that? Out of curiosity. Why economics and why not moral philosophy or some other lens? I mean you have a philosophy background, so why not that?


Morgan Warstler

As a college debater in high school and college, there was always this strong effort to go find cases that would be unique. And so, I would drag a lot out from science fiction and most of your really strong libertarian science fiction writers. All kind of project into the future how the economics or incentives change when the technology changes.


And so, I would drag anything I could from a hindline story into a debate round and try to make everybody think in terms of, you should be able to bank prison time. Why not let somebody go to prison and then come out and kill somebody because that's better than him killing them now.


And there's really no reason that you wouldn't put them away for 20 years and let the poor victim live on, and maybe the guy changes his mind, becomes a different person.


Robert Hansen

So, there is a little bit of philosophy built into that.


Morgan Warstler

But I think about it from an economics perspective. Somebody thinks the payoff is worth X. They want to really enjoy walking away from it. And if they'll do the time first, then everybody's, the incentives are aligned properly. And that would be a good policy. Everybody benefits.


Robert Hansen

So I think the reason I enjoy having you as a guest, but generally in talking with you is, you force me to think differently. So, I spend a lot of time, I would say that the bulk, maybe slightly more than 50% of my friends are definitely very left leaning. Almost like anarchists.


Morgan Warstler

That's probably half mine.


Robert Hansen

It's a pretty sizable amount, but it's not just that you are a Republican that is a minority of my friends. It's not just that. It's also, you seem to have a totally different way of thinking about it. It's not just state's rights and call it a day sort of thing or christianity and that's it. You seem to have a very strong sense of where things are going. And I think that's pretty compelling for people to hear.


Morgan Warstler

Okay. I refer to my kind of thinking as digital conservatism. My whole kind of philosophy is that from an economic standpoint, everything that you think about as being free market or capitalist or conservative or pro-business, or however you want to think about it, property rights.


It's all premised on the atomic meaning. If I have a dirty old shoe, you don't have a dirty old shoe. And if you have a 16 inch television, I do not have that television. And that the unfortunate reality of zero sum in atoms, you either have it or I have it, is the foundation of property rights.


And that the moment you can have a copy and I can have a copy, you're in the Superman-Bizarro world. And if people could copy food or copy oil, there would be riots in the streets. If we said, "No, you can't have as much oil in food as you want."


And because of that, it seemed clear to me that if you stand next to a digital file, or a song, or a piece of software or a movie or a 3D script for making an object, and you say, "This is property and we're going to defend it." Like atoms, all you're doing is making atoms look like they're not worth as much.


You're convincing everybody out there that grabbing somebody's atoms is the same. And if instead conservatives say, "Ah, no, wait a minute. You can have all the classes from Harvard for free and all the music and all the movies. And you're the bottom half of the population. We want you to have everything because hell, it's hard enough to keep up.


Let alone be able to pay for all this stuff that the top half has. So, you should all have it." And when you do that, I think it makes Atomic property far more. It valorizes it. And it lets people understand when we say, "Sorry man, I can still shoot you if you try to come into my house and take my dirty old shoe." And digital property, right? The idea of IP.


It doesn't mean that you can take my song and sell copies of it. We can go find your pile of Belty Luca and take it from you. But what we can't do is build a government big enough to break all DRM and track everything that's going on in order to enforce no sharing of something that can be infinitely copied.


Like you need an infinite size government to keep something copyable from being copied. And that's not pro-market. That's not small government.


Robert Hansen

So, you're just playing this out to the absurdity of, where could this go if someone actually wanted to make this all actually enforce all these crazy laws.


Morgan Warstler

I was in a unique position. I came out of Hollywood and I built one of the biggest Hollywood dirt bombs in 2000.


Robert Hansen

Well, you were also involved in one that was quite successful and well-known as well.


Morgan Warstler

Anyway, we went through this process where I was dealing with digital content and I went around to the studio, says, "Hey, I built this platform where you guys will license it from any this tech and it'll deliver your content to people over 56 million. And they said, "Oh, you're really HBO, we're not giving you any of our content."


And so, I had to go make content just because they didn't want to license me when we started. And that process got me thinking early on around what's really going on where this thing is... There's no way we're going to be able to keep people from having your movie, from having your song spread. And the moment I shrugged and learned to love it, I didn't lose any of my politics, or I didn't lose any of my economics. It just was a natural thing.


And so, I met and dealt with this SAG and RIAA and advised them when the SAG actors literally were like renegotiating their local TV commercials. And I was like, "Look, these are going to be national spots. You don't realize it because they're taking these cheap commercials you did and planning on putting them out over Mark Cuban's broadcast.com and the rest of it."


And so, they went on strike around the subject, and then I dealt with SAG and RIAA because they were chasing Jonas and Nicholas around who were doing Kaza. And they were chasing them all. David Boys were chasing them all over Hollywood. And I was in a position there to be like, "Look, you guys are going to benefit.


Music labels are going to benefit long term from this. You've just got to get over the music sale bit of it, because people are still going to have to spend their money on music." Meaning if you've got to buy every album, there's a very high barrier to you becoming a fan. If you have every song and even the tape. I followed the Dead.


So, if you have all the shows and all the clips, and you know all of it, you are a fan and you haven't spent any money. And it's not real to you that you are a fan until you spend your money.


Robert Hansen

Quick side story. Actually I know the guy who ran grateful.org. So, he actually had the biggest online collection of grateful tapes, people had done bootlegs.


Morgan Warstler

If you're aware of that culture it's very hard when you're watching digital files, move around to not think, "Hey, wait a minute, there's no downside to this." And everybody's screaming, "Oh my God, oh my God." It seemed like they were literally saying, "Let's not feed people who we want to be hooked on our food." And it doesn't make any sense.


And so, early on I kind of had this notion, I just didn't formalize it into a, "Hey, wait a minute, this is why." And laid it all out. And nobody, there are still people who think this is a terrible idea.


Robert Hansen

Yeah. I'm sure. I mean almost everybody.


Morgan Warstler

Yeah. But no, but I mean, the world's moved quite a bit.


Robert Hansen

Almost everybody who's incented to care about this problem disagrees with you.


Morgan Warstler

Well, I disagree.


Robert Hansen

I mean, you think there's some outliers there that want to change?


Morgan Warstler

I think most of the guys in the music label industry at this point know, will admit outright that the ticket prices just went parabolic the moment everybody hand all the songs for free because you still had to spend your money. And that doesn't mean you can't sell music. It just means you can't try to use the government to keep people who aren't going to pay or can't pay from getting a copy of it.


And if you have been to China and you've seen how they're labeling music system runs, there's no music sales whatsoever. But they still have rock stars and an infinite number who will raise their hand and say, "Yes, I'd like to be a rockstar."


So, the system works without having any actual music sales. And I think it's the tragedy that right now we have poor people who we do not let be part of every aspect of edge culture right when the movies come out, so they know what the topic is, they know what everybody's talking about. So, they are participating because they don't have the resources to do it.


And that creates the inequality that makes everybody say, "Well, how come the poor kids aren't as smart as the rich kids?" Because they're literally not consuming the fabric of the culture. And they already have shitier parents, so there's no reason that we shouldn't be like, "Hey, watch all the movies."


Robert Hansen

So, on that, that lends that little note there. So, one reason why I think that... I have to preface this for my audience here. Because they don't know you like I know you. So, you are a very polarizing person online. Would you agree with that?


Morgan Warstler

Yeah.


Robert Hansen

I'm not saying that's good or bad, I'm just saying you are polarizing. Yeah?


Morgan Warstler

Yeah. I'm also nightmare on the HOA at the condo in Florida.


Robert Hansen

I believe that's probably true, but part of the reason I think you being inflammatory is kind of interesting is, really what this comes down to is, I think you're trying to make a point. I think every single thing you send out with exception of a few jokes where you're just poking fun at somebody, I think you're actually trying to make a point. I think this trolling that you're doing, I think you're doing something intentionally. Am I wrong? Is that how you see it?


I mean, because if anyone's going to follow you online, they're going very quickly see there's a parade of very pointed snarky, funny, but also sometimes quite serious. But everything has got an edge to it.


Morgan Warstler

Yeah. And would hurt. True wit has to reach in and grab your heart and squeeze. I got a little thing I can promote. I got a dead great, great aunt named Dawn Powell. Who when I grew up, all of her novels, about half of them were about a girl who leaves, or a guy who leaves a small town in Ohio and moves to the big city in order to make their way in fashion or art or music or whatever.


And Hemingway called her his favorite living comic writer. And she's got two volumes in the Library of America. And there's stuff she wrote in 1930 that is still so brutal that if you read it now, it's offensive. Like preaching that women, pretty women should bounce from one rich husband to the next climbing higher and higher and higher, because the guys are only marrying them to look good to the other guys.


And so, she should always find the highest guy in that circle and let him do it with her again and preaches it. And it's all done around advertising. And her whole point is that marriage is advertising. And she brutalizes it in this play called Big Night where you watch this happen. And I can't imagine.


Robert Hansen

That's pretty brutal.


Robert Warstler:


Literally, I thought, "Oh, holy cow, this is great. This is a really rough woman."


Robert Hansen

Sounds like a smart woman


Morgan Warstler

And she was like a rabbit anti-suffragette. Really against the whole women's voting thing and lived with her husband and boyfriend in Greenwich Village for like 30 years and as a Algonquin round table person. But her whole philosophy was, we own half of the culture right now, and the moment we make voting the most important thing, and we politicized this.


And I'm not saying she was right. I'm just saying the alternative way of thinking was much more strongly stated than, it wasn't like she was dumb about it. She literally was like, "We're going to end up having less power overall than we do." And I'm not always sure that she was wrong.


Robert Hansen

So, get me back. This is your online trolling and stuff.


Morgan Warstler

That's where I come from. I started with the premise, or start with the premise of little kid reading her stuff, that she was brutal and never pulled any punches. And I became that kind of mindset early on. I mean, I've been online since 1979. Bulletin boards where you had to like dial in on a 300 board modem and get your privileges up. From the CSOP so you could get to the cooler files and leave comments.


And all the way through from bulletin boards to news groups and finally when the well and all that stuff. And in each case most people they respond if there's a point in there mm-hmm. And I don't think that it should be wrapped in nicety.


Robert Hansen

I think that's probably one of the reasons I enjoy following you more than anything is to watch people react to you. Not because I necessarily agree with the words you're saying, or even your point in some cases at all. But I really enjoy the back and forth between these people. And you spend a lot of time reeducating people to your point of view. It's not like you just posed something and just leave it. You really engage with the people who you're talking to.


Morgan Warstler

It's incredibly complicated to learn to make an argument correctly. To make a really perfect argument. And you sometimes have got to start at really weird places and try to get into it a different way in order to find the smartest way to do it. And each new person is worth an infinite amount of time if you can see progress being made or be pulling out admittances or making them go, "Aha." And you want to get those done. Eventually an AI is going to be able to figure out how to do this.


Robert Hansen

And in a couple of cases, you've been dead on. Absolutely dead, dead on. And I was tracking, and one was a bet you made about the amount of COVID deaths in Austin. I forget, was somebody was betting you that they would write a thousand-word essay or something. And it was by October whenever it was, or whatever.


So, I put it on my calendar to go back and check the numbers, just so I could see what would happen. And sure enough, you were absolutely, completely right. Do you remember that bet?


Morgan Warstler

Scott Myers never wrote the thousand-word essay.


Robert Hansen

I hate people ruining on bets.


Morgan Warstler

No, no. I actually never go back and get my bet paid off.


Robert Hansen

This is the incremental gain you're talking about. I'm always curious. I too find it useful to engage with people. I don't have as much faith that there is any gain to be made. But it maybe in some cases like that where you can go back and prove it. Like I had a very similar bet with somebody about Huawei.


Someone, analyst at Gartner said that, "No one's even going to remember the fact that they were somehow involved with the Chinese military." Couple years down the road, no one's even remember any of that. And I'm like, "Oh, well, first of all, you're not right at all, but whatever." So I took a bet. It was just a $1 bet. Three years to the day later, United States announced sanctions against them.


Morgan Warstler

And good.


Robert Hansen

I would like my $1 and he is never going to pay me. But I do think that he had to spend a lot of time writing that 20 paragraphs back to me explaining why I was still wrong and he was still right somehow.


Morgan Warstler

Cognitive dissonances is the only way to make somebody change their mind. And you have to create so much of it in their brain that they actually flip. This is little side thing. I mean, I don't know if it's the easiest way to think about it, but it's why it's such a stupid thing to talk about whether somebody's gay because of nature or nurture, because it's nurture.


But you'd have to go back so many decisions that were made so early on in the formation of a neural network to figure out what the hell happened. That if you wanted to reprogram someone, I mean, if you take me and drop me in a men's prison for 10 years, the stats say, I will think men are hot. My brain will finally be like, "You just got to, they're hot." And I'll be like, "Oh dude, check that dude out." But that process it's like relearning to walk after a stroke. We can't pray that away.


Robert Hansen

They did it with Biden.


Morgan Warstler

Just mentally getting someone to switch their mind is literally more like getting them to like the opposite of wherever their head is sexually.


Robert Hansen

Lets move on from this one. We're going to spend be too much time there if we do this one. But it is actually kind of a nice segue because I think you value education of the masses.


Morgan Warstler

Oh, a lot.


Robert Hansen

Yeah. I think you do. Probably more even than I do, even though I work in areas where people spend a lot of time building botnets to educate people in whatever way they want. But you actually used to write for Breitbart once upon a time. So, I actually don't know how that all happened. Can you shed some light? Because you actually met Andrew Breitbart.


Morgan Warstler

I used to sit with Andy at a bar in Venice while he did the dredge report. This was 2001, 2002. And I mean, I was buddies with him. We had met, actually, if you go back to the very first time, Drudge was on book notes with Brian Lamb on CSPAN in like '97. Call her out of Hollywood. I'm literally awake at 5:00 In the morning in order to call in and watch this. I used to always watch C-SPAN.


Like the caller who says, "You have no idea who you're talking to Brian Lamb. This is Matt Drudge and if you're a junkie out there, you can just get a web TV at this point and know more about what's going on in the news than most of the people who are making the news at this point."


Robert Hansen

Sad commentary.


Morgan Warstler

But I was fascinated. And so, Drew was Huffington's Ariana's personal assistant. And I had pitched. I met Frank Lance in '94 when he was doing the polling work with Newt Gingrich for the contract with America. And I was at a junk mail firm, and they were like, "Find something that you can generate new money with."


And so, I went and kind of got into the polling of words and phrases, talking to Lance, and said, "Look, I'm going to I set up this thing with the RNC where it was called The Right Word." And it was going to be Lance's polling on a monthly basis on 10 subjects where all the different words and phrases, family values, value of families were tested.


And it was just going to be a Dicatte that accrued more and more for a fined replace thing so that everybody in the party would be required to always use the exact same phrase and no deviation. If you have to say it 15 times in every speech, that's what you do. And we're all going to talk to the exact same, whatever. And Huffington was the editor who was brought on mm-hmm.


It was going to be like 300 bucks a year. And the New York Times on a Sunday came out with this article called Frank Wants a Brainwasher. That doing this crazy thing was brainwashing. And he had to hightail it. He disappeared from American politics and had to go to the foreign markets and live there for like four or five years because of his brainwashing. Which is now standard procedure.


Literally, you can find out what the NPCs are all repeating over and over and over now on Twitter. And it's whatever the poll tested phrase is, and it is what it is. So, I came out of that, Drudge I met Breitbart and I watched him do Drudge saw how it was done. And it was very interesting.


I mean, in fact, we had an opportunity to try to push, or at least I knew a friend of ours was going to be meeting Elon last week and I wanted to say, "Hey, this is what I'd do with Twitter. Think about it." But it came out of that, what I learned with Andy, which was, he sat at a bar and would read all of the news wires, just the headlines with the article text. But they had to link from Drudge to an actual site.


And so, all of the articles from Odd John's Press, or from the AP or whatever they have to go out, is syndicated to this site or this site or my way.com or Canton Repository or whatever it was. And early on I was like, "Hey, why don't we just license all of your bundles from the AP?" And they said, "Oh, you're going to get all the content. Don't worry, you'll have everything." And I was like, "No, I want every article." And they go, "Oh, we won't do that. We won't do that at all."


And the reason is because the APs model is premised on. If all the articles were in place, no one's ever going to go to place number two. And I was like, "Wait a minute. This is what's wrong with the internet." Meaning all of the articles, all of them should be... You the movie that's just out, Everywhere, Everything, All at Once.


So, it doesn't matter what link I click, I go to the Canton Repository and I read the article there with everybody else who wants to read it at the Canton Repository. And resolving that master link down to my local readership is no big deal. And it would save local newspapers because the eyeballs and the classified traffic and everything would all be there.


And I thought, "Oh, this is genius. I'm going to tell the AP, they'll put themselves out of business and they'll save all the papers." And the APs attitude was like, "No, we're not going to do that." But that's what Twitter ought to be doing as well, in my opinion. Meaning Twitter should be, the back end should be publicly funded, but the front end should be, I get my Twitter at the New York Times, or NPR or Breitbart or NRA or Guns and Armor or whatever it is that animates me and their content should be able to integrate with it.


And they should be able to block whoever the hell they want and create whatever kind of space based upon their publishing instincts at the publisher's site. But the backend, that should be publicly financed, public hosting, not government running it, but public hosting. And nobody should be able to, that's like your mailbox. It's like some kind of service that is a must have. And I think that between those, that kind of model, Twitter becomes a lot more valuable.


Robert Hansen

So, you had met Andy and at some point he decided that Morgan Warstler should start writing for him. Like how did that happen? You skipped over some steps here.


Morgan Warstler

Breitbart said, "Morgan, you got to write. You're going to cover tech for me." And I said, "I don't really cover technology, I just have a few notions about how conservatives should deal with tech." And so I said, "Yeah, I'll do it." And wrote them all out. And it took me about six months and I had done all of the ideas that I thought were important.


And the topics are basically that we should replace the government with software so we can have a bigger welfare basket and no public employees. And that we should give away all the content. Anything digital should be available to the people of the bottom half. And that the third one that I've really latched onto as we've gone through this health site cycle that we've been going through is public hosting


Those ideas, I fleshed out literally drinking with Breitbart for years and years. And if anybody wants to ever be the next Andy Breitbart, conservative or liberal, I can tell you the absolute secret to it. I know for sure exactly what it was. Andy was totally selfless at handing out contacts to the point where it was just nuts.


Like, if I called him and said, "Hey, I, I need Trent Lot's phone number." "Okay." Didn't ask why. And in return for that, if anybody called and said, "Andy gave me your phone number." You had to spend as much time as necessary helping whoever that person was and he was indiscriminate about it. Like half the time you were talking to a crazy person. And every other person's brain is like, "No, no."


Robert Hansen

Are you one of the crazy people.


Morgan Warstler

Sure. I mean, most people think that if they are going to introduce you to somebody else, they want to get in the middle of it. And all he really did was operate on, "I got an open Rolodex and I don't have time to talk to you, but whatever crazy idea came outta your head, go tell the next guy and it'll survive or not but I'm going to help it." And it made him infinitely popular, even with the crazy people.


There were so many times that somebody who didn't know what to do was instantly talking to the three people who could say, "That's not a good idea, or that's a really good idea or you should talk to this other person." And because everybody else wanted to know Andy, you could almost force other people who you didn't know into the conversation by being like, "Hey Andy, find this guy and tell him he is got to talk to me." And he could make that happen as well. And it was just selfless. I don't know if it's selfless or smart.


Robert Hansen

Super connector.


Morgan Warstler

Totally. Without taking anything out of the middle . And so, when he said, "You're going to write for this thing. And I said, "Well, write down the ideas I have." I wasn't going to say no. I mean, I'm not a professional writer.


Robert Hansen

Did you get paid for it?


Morgan Warstler

Oh, no, no.


Robert Hansen

Then you definitely are not professional.


Morgan Warstler

No, no. I wrote junk mail for years professionally. But I've read too much Hunter Thompson. I write for me. I like it if the words sound smart to me.


Robert Hansen

Good. So, one of the very first things that we talked about the very first time we met was the fact that you called yourself an anarchial capitalist.


Morgan Warstler

Yes.


Robert Hansen

So before we go any further, could you just briefly explain what that is for the audience, just so they don't lose track of where this conversation's going? Because it's a bit of an arcane thing. I think the way you describe it.


Morgan Warstler

Traditional anarchy capitalist believe that you're not going to have any government at all, or that we'd be better off if it was all corporations. And like you joined a corporate tribe instead of a national tribe. That kind of thing. There's a great set of books, Jennifer Government, I think the guy's name is Max Barry. But there's a lot of science fiction that's wrapped around this kind of future corporation.


There's a great novel called the Unincorporated Man on the subject. But generally speaking, that's it. They want the government itself to become anarchist. They're an anarchist because they trust corporations. I think of myself as one, because I trust software. I think of software, not necessarily distributed Web3.


But like software as it ultimately does what government is supposed to do, which is dispatch service. This guy needs to go there and do this task and pick this guy up and go do that thing. And I think about government itself as kind of just a bunch of directed and agents all working with kind of a quarterback mindset.


And so, when I think about government, I'm able to blank my mind. And there aren't actually any public employees, but there's still somebody who does animal control and fill potholes. And there's still a voting system where someone's in charge. And this is what a lot of my patent work is around.


Robert Hansen

Will get to that too.


Morgan Warstler

The Breitbart stuff came because I'm a gadfly in Republican politics. Meaning I've been around him for a long time. I literally, when I followed The Dead, I followed George Will same year, like '86, I was 16 and watching George Will on the circuit and going on Dead shows.


Robert Hansen

I bet they were very proud of you.


Morgan Warstler

Very. They probably were. But I mean, they just smiled and said, "Go have a good time." So, I was a free range kid.


Robert Hansen

Me too. Not that free range though. So, when I first started trying to fully grok this concept. I spent a time, I think I might even sent you this document. I wrote down all of the policies that I think fit in this model. And some of them are pretty contentious, I would say. So, let me just rattle them off and you can stop me at any point. So, more prisoners of the Democratic party. So, if you can find a way to put more Democrats in prison, they can't vote as much.


Morgan Warstler

I'm not real concerned about whether they vote or not.


Robert Hansen

But if less Democrats are voting, then you're more likely to get Republicans elected.


Morgan Warstler

I generally do not want prisoners to vote. I think we should take it away from them. And I think that the only kind of things people should be in prison for are violent acts. I'm a brutalist, meaning I want the government to be small enough. I'd rather have it have brutal action that sometimes not perfectly just. Meaning we could take like the OJ trial right?


We could have taken the entire national GDP and just focused on that one trial and every single person would've had some part of the economy just around figuring out that one trial. And we didn't do that. I mean, we felt like we did, but it employed a lot of people for whatever, but it was still a very small part of our GDP. I think about it just that way. Meaning there's a lot of stuff where we can only get as much justice as we can afford.


Robert Hansen

That's fair enough.


Morgan Warstler

And so, I oftentimes start with what's the least amount we have to spend where we're getting that 80% preto kind of response. And where we spend the 20 and that's good enough. And that means there's a lot of things you shouldn't try people for. It means you probably shouldn't have the death penalty unless you have DNA. It just means be short and if you can't write the law down in a page. I get very nervous about it.


Robert Hansen

Well, me too. But also the idea of that and the following things I'm going to be talking about here. Is not so much whether your personal ethics are involved in it, but more about how does somebody who is a brutalist not necessarily about any individual law, but about getting the capitalist?


Okay, here's the thing. You get the opportunity, you can vote one way, you can vote the other way. We don't really have a middle party in the United States. You have to choose. So, if you have to choose which one are you going to choose. And if you choose the right wing at all costs and you're just like, "Okay, that's my team. I'm going that direction."


There's a set of policies that seem to naturally come out of that, that although they seem pretty brutal on their face, might actually dramatically remove the needle. And if you believe that the right is the correct side of the coin here and that more good things can happen, it seems like despite the fact you might personally, you Morgan might disagree with putting someone in jail for a minor offense.


You should actually agree with a policy that would put as many non-violent Democrats or violent Democrats doesn't really matter in jail for the purpose of making sure they can't vote. Where am I wrong?


Morgan Warstler

Okay. I want to make one caveat because I'm going to agree with the sentence, but only in the weirdest possible way. I think the big mistake that people make is not understanding that the United States system of federalism, state's rights, is not just a legal theory. Fundamentally, what it does is it has kept the talent.


And you can think about it as like the brutal, evil, talent, or just everybody who doesn't have a lot of money, but they’ve got a brain on their hand. It has kept the talent in the United States in charge for 250 years versus capital, which is yesterday's talent, the goons.


We don't have as many goons now as we used to. And the bureaucrats, and we have a ton of those now. Many of the goons have been replaced by bureaucrats. And bureaucrats love to get together with capital and try to be in charge of the talent. And in the United States, the talent just picks up and moves to whichever state kisses their ass best.


And one of the things I always try to get people to look at is a video on YouTube of the population of the states over the past 250 years growing. And they're all growing slowly, but some get out in front and then slide back and forth. And you can see exactly what's going to happen next in the United States and predict it throughout our history by which states are being bum rushed and which states are being fled.


And so, right now, everybody who visualizes somehow the United States isn't going to kick the out of the CCP or that we've got real problems, capitalism's falling apart or all the other junk. They're all starting with the premise that somehow what's happening in California is what's the United States is going to do. That's not going to happen. It's never happened like that. California's being fled by all the talent. New York is being fled by all the talent.


So, if you want to see what's next for the United States. Well it's what Texas and Florida do. We are taking over and when our bureaucrats or capital kind of 20 years from now, 30 years from now, start to try to seize the power like they did when the Tylenol in the 60s and 70s moved to California and Reagan came out of then. He's our DeSantis. And that eventually they chase the talent away. And all it means is the California lost the conk. They no longer speak for what America is or what America will be.


And anybody who's pretending otherwise, can't point to any moment in American history where that's ever happened because the talent just picks up and moves and goes where it gets its ass kissed. And I think that system is so important, so important that if Kentucky said, "We are going to criminalize all kinds of speech that is within our state." I'd probably be like, "Good." Not good that you're doing it, but good that you can do it. I would go back to what we had before the Civil War where states themselves could have religions.


Like I'd let Utah have polygamy and let the Mormons go nuts so that we literally could make Israel a state and tell Palestine that as soon as the last missile lands in Israel, 10 years later, we'll give you territory status. And you can have your state-based religion, and we're not going to take it from you because in the old model and what the US was originally.


It was just a bunch of totally freestanding sovereign states whose sole amount of agreement. Like the littlest amount of agreement was contentious. And it was just like there was no powers given to the federal government. It was all left to the state legislature. In fact, that's why, I don't know if we're talking about this or not, but that's why I was in the Oval last year, right after Trump lost.


Robert Hansen

Yeah, go ahead.


Morgan Warstler

People do not understand Article II, section one of the US Constitution. Says in one sentence, state legislatures, "Effectively choose who gets the electors for president." Meaning they choose who that state's voting for. And you can get into the weeds about it, but it really comes down to they have total control over this thing. And they literally can gerrymander out there, wazoo.


It's very strict and straightforward. And the reason was because the guys who founded the Constitution, they were all visualized themselves as legislators of the state. And the only thing they were concerned about was making sure that they kept there were 11 states showed up, plus the big one, Virginia, so 12. I think Rhode Island stayed home. They wouldn't even show. And they came up with this system, which was, "Look, if we're going to have a president, well we got to pick that guy and we got to pick who the senators are too. And those two who we pick, they'll pick the scotus. So, we'll be in charge of all of that."


And then, the house, that's the common man's thing. And they have the power of the purse. So, our guys, our citizens, who are going to pay those taxes or whatever are going to be responsible for the bills that they incur, they're going to have to be able to vote for that one thing.


So, in the US system, when you get down to brass tax, it was all set up so that people only got to vote for their house rep and everything else was left up to the state legislator.


And so, I showed up and told this to Trump, said, "Look, I want you to break up. Tell everybody that you want the state legislators to pick you. Don't even get into the crimes that you think happened. Just say you can pick anybody you want. And if you pick me, I'm going to break up Washington D.C and I'll give you the Department of Justice. And that's 80,000, six figure jobs. Ohio and or Pennsylvania and I will split up all these departments amongst the 38 red and purple states. And we'll have a virtualized federal government."


Washington DC is a 100 Amazon HQs. Its 1.5 million six figure jobs. And no Democrat in Florida or Georgia is going to vote to not steal all the jobs from HHS. They're not that good of a Democrat. They want those jobs.


Robert Hansen

All right. So Morgan, bring me back.


Morgan Warstler

So, I operate on the premise that, that a federated digital system, a federal system is so important that you've got to let the states do crazier, crazier stuff. And I really think that if you've been around software, you should be comfortable with crazier and crazier stuff because it's so easy to switch from one crazy piece of software setting to we're going to adopt the Virginia software setting.


Robert Hansen

So, you're saying you'd be okay with this scenario where you put a whole bunch of Democrats in jail to see if you can get a better showing of Republicans by percentage as a state experiment?


Morgan Warstler

I would say that the states ought to be able to do a lot of things that people have not. And they should get to try. Liberals and conservatives should have far more sovereign behavior, and they should only be responsible if people move. If everybody flees, if they can't make it work, that's the proof that it doesn't work.


And I think about iterated government like software, meaning that in junk mail or an internet development, you A/B test everything. You try every stupid idea you can think of. And all of the policy wants, who think of themselves as real good policy thinkers. They'd be much happier in a system where all they had to do was get one town to try their crazy plan.


Everybody has to have a cat or whatever it is, because they wouldn't be trying to take old data and make a case for a plan. They just try it. Some, all you got to do is find one crazy place to try your crazy thing and see if it works. And so, I am not saying we should throw them in jail, but I start with the premise of how much do I want to stop things from happening, and I don't want to stop a lot of things from happening.


Robert Hansen

Okay. That was a very long way to get to there.


Morgan Warstler

Well, you're telling me I'm going to put all the Democrats in jail.


Robert Hansen

No, no. I didn't say you're going to do that.


Morgan Warstler

I can see how they would say he's in favor of putting them in jail.


Robert Hansen

No, no, no. Actually not. I'm glad you made that clear. I'm actually not accusing you of doing that. But more like, these seem to be the kinds of policies that if one were to take a hard line approach to this.


Morgan Warstler

You'll be right on most of these because you shouldn't stop crazy. That's my thing. You shouldn't stop crazy.


Robert Hansen

So, targeting economics of women, because women voters tend to be Democrat.


Morgan Warstler

Yeah, I would target, and I'd do the same with men too.


Robert Hansen

But men are not more...


Morgan Warstler

I think I would not.


Robert Hansen

This is a hard line. This isn't your personal ethics.


Morgan Warstler

No. Well, again, I would allow if a state said, "I don't want to be a state, or I'll join and be a United State, but we have really strict rules about women voting, or we're Amazonians and we don't want men to be able to..." My attitude would be more about, let's get them in. Let's get them hooked into the software platform. Let them do their crazy stuff.


Robert Hansen

I understood. So targeting women could also be health as well. So, if women died more often or earlier in life or whatever, there's less democratic voters statistically speaking.


Morgan Warstler

Well, you're talking about abortion and I'm a huge pro-choice fan, right? You can make babies and get rid of them right up to whatever, as far as I'm concerned because of property rights. But if you're a Democrat and you really want to seize power, you want there to be a state who makes abortion, just flat out illegal because we didn't discover women's right to an abortion until we invented welfare.


And when LBJs war on poverty happened in '64, '65, '66, all these Democrat white women wandered around all the poorest areas and told all the poor women that they would get more money, free money if they were divorced or single, and the more kids they had. And if you look at marriage rates amongst poor people. So really, half of those are black. So, most of the blacks at the time are poor.


You look at the marriage rates, it goes from 60%, 70%. There were more black married families than white married families. And it just dives down to 22% or 23%. And it was literally all done in the name of getting free money.


Robert Hansen

Getting people hooked on a system.


Morgan Warstler

The moment that they got it, Reagan showed up and took it away from him for being welfare queens.


Robert Hansen

Out of curiosity, do you believe that that was an intended or unintended consequence? Do you think that they were going around saying, well, this is going to make a whole bunch of democratic voters?


Morgan Warstler

LBJ said out loud that blacks would vote Democrat for the next 50 years or whatever with the passing of this act. And it was very much wrapped around.


Robert Hansen

But do you think that he did it with the intention that black people might get some benefit from it and therefore they'll like us, or this will impoverish them and make them more wary of any policies that don't give them free handouts, or both?


Morgan Warstler

I think that he was handing out free money in order to buy votes.


Robert Hansen

So, this marriage thing was an unintended consequence, you think?


Morgan Warstler

But the second one was that by 1967 Colorado says, "Holy cow, we have all this explosion in welfare roles, and we got all these babies we got to take care of." And they looked around and discovered that women had a right to choice. And it took off like wildfire. Like Colorado did it first, and they passed those laws faster than gay rights just happened in the United States. And that was with the internet.


I mean, by '72, SCOTUS was willing to swoop in and say, "Oh, you absolutely have a right somewhere in the 14th amendment or somewhere to do this." And it was a direct reflection of welfare costs." And so, GOP voters are natural, you've got your social conservatives and your low tax guys. My kind of people.


Robert Hansen

That's closer to me.


Morgan Warstler

Yeah. And you say no abortion and you are going to have a much more expensive welfare system and health and education. And that process is going to break the law tax guys off from the social conservatives.


Robert Hansen

Yeah. This is a bit of a weird area where I start diverging between the right and the left pretty dramatically. I totally get the tax and the benefits, and so therefore I end up being on the conservative side. But when we start taking rights away from women, I'm just like, "I can't abide."


So, it seems like conservatives are a bit of a split mind about this because there is definitely upside in having fewer very impoverished women in society.


Morgan Warstler

Yeah, I don't think about that much. I used to tell you, in my theory, I'm in Texas because it rocks. I'm in Florida because it rocks. I got my eye on Colorado in case Texas and Florida don't. And moving is more important than voting. Meaning if you don't pick your butt up and move, Mark Andreessen, there's no excuse for AZ 16 to still be in California.


Throw your weight around and come to Austin, Texas. If you don't pick up and move in order to really register your displeasure, you are furthering a bad system.


So, if I'm here and they make abortion illegal, I will not run right then I will wait and see if the taxes go up and the services go down and I'll make a completely economic based decision. And my attitude is I would trust that long-term, that's the best way to deal with rights.


It's going to put the screws to the Conservatives as well. But we'll get to Artificial rule. The rule will be that you can get it out of you. But if anybody else wants to pay to just state it, it's theirs. That new fight, which is total property rights, that new fight will require that the Conservatives put up or shut up.


It'll drive the feminists crazy because they'll want to have a continued right to it even when it's no longer there because it bothers them or whatever.


Robert Hansen

Interesting. We’ll talk about that.


Morgan Warstler

We'll get there.


Robert Hansen

Yeah. Government workers getting rid of them, because the way I understand it, it has been explained to me as this is a double tax. Because first of all, the typically right leaning, the business owners or whatever are paying for government workers. Then government workers are taking that money and then funding primarily the Democratic Party.


Morgan Warstler

Yeah, I think that it's very hard to argue. Anyone who's just stared at accounting books, and thinks about it in terms of economics, it's very hard to argue that public employees pay income tax at all. They pay sales tax. It's why we should have a sales tax or not an income tax or VAT or land value tax or other stuff. Goods. Consumption-based.


But it's very hard to argue that they're actually because they're just, all we're doing is negotiating how much money they are going to have, then pretending that that extra amount was paid. It just stays in the same account. The same thing happens with union dues. There's just Oh, terminus to a point.


That point is they are union dues and that's all going to go to organizing democratic politics. If you're honest about it, Republicans pay for both sides political parties. They pay all their own donations. Then their taxes pay for the Democrats to run against them. And that drives Democrats crazy. There's no way to, money does not originate in the government. I'm sorry. Talent makes money.


Robert Hansen

That's interesting. Faith. Increasing faith. Because it seems like the more faith there is, the more right-leaning you tend to vote.


Morgan Warstler

With abortion there's a chick. There's a Bruenig girl out there, Elizabeth Bruenig, who's really pushing hard on the Catholic justice, social justice side. I wouldn't be surprised to see a much bigger split down the line there in the near future. Sure. Because you could see the church folks being like, I don't care how much the welfare system costs or how big the taxes have to be in order to keep all those babies alive.


God bless him. If it works out, I'll move back. But I, just generally speaking, I am not a big believer that there shouldn't be any costs to birthing children, meaning the process of. If it were up to me, right, I would set it so that if you have three kids, you don't pay any income taxes, and after until you make 100 grand. At four, 150. At five, 200. At six… Take the people who will want to have a lot of kids and make it so they can really have litters of them.


Because they do a much better job of raising children. Again, statistically speaking, an incredibly good job of raising children. What I'm saying is not that screw poor people. It’s there's a way to make it so that we fix very, very quickly, the welfare system so that young men are marriage material again. Basically, if you're a poor single woman in United States and you have a boy, the chances of him being worth marrying, it's like one out of five of them is a worthy merit. Is worthy to be married.


The girls will do okay. They only have a 20% lifetime earnings fall off. But their boys just go right off the cliff. That creates the cycle of poverty. Because all of these girls, you can't ask them to marry a bunch of guys who are totally worthless. We need a system that grabs those boys at 14 and gives them full-time summer work. Has them working as apprentices and underneath guys in male-dominated industries.


Where they're surrounded by toxic males who actually know how to plumb and weld and fix cars, and earn a living. Because if you take a kid, a boy who's 18. You want to double he’s, low skill, blue collar, you want to double his lifetime earnings, get him married and give him a kid. Doubles his lifetime earnings.


We need a system that takes these kids from 14, 18 and turns them into a skilled. In five, six years, I won't sound like the jerk who said we should really be trying to get rich people to have more children. Because at the bottom, there won't be a bunch of single people who are raising kids who aren't worth very much to us.


Robert Hansen

All right. Next is unincorporated areas, Washington DC being one of them. Puerto Rico, Virgin Islands, etc. It seems like the more of those that we could circle and say, “Well, this is Democrats so they don't get to vote in national elections.” That would certainly help the Republican Party.


I don't even think a lot of people understand that this happens, which is odd. We have a lot of American citizens who just do not have the right to vote.


Morgan Warstler

I would never let Washington DC be a state. If I could make a rule that in order to be an elected Republican in Washington DC, or work in Republican Party, or in any Think Tank, that you literally had to shit on the street as part of having your job there. Three times a day, or twice a day or whatever it is. I would do so to make that place that miserable. It'd be like France. It'd be like Paris. Just terrible everywhere on the street. I would do it to him on purpose.


I’m just trying to give you from my perspective that they should literally feel hated. Even being there, let alone, they should never get to think they're going to be Beijing. We should break that place up. It should be full of museums, and tourist attractions. All the departments should be spread out. There should never be a group of people who go to Harvard and then McKinsey and bounce from department to department to department and think they're going to boss the rest of us around. They're just sick little parasites.


If you want to work for the State Department, you should have to go to school at North Carolina, or South Carolina College because they own the State Department. It's their bespoke little industry. If you want to be in the Justice Department, you get over to Pennsylvania or you got to be in Ohio. If you want to be in DOD, it's in Colorado, and Texas and Florida. We should distribute it because DC is a cancer of just diabolical proportions.


The only hack to federalism, right, this system that the founders created. The only hack is a group of people who are so sick, who hate the place they are so much. That rather than to move to one of the other 50 fabulous flavors, where they could have four or five or six of their preferences that they want their way. I want drugs and abortion and high taxes or low taxes or unions or whatever it is. They could do it. Instead they moved Washington DC in order to boss everybody around. Those people, yeah, we probably shouldn't let any of them vote.


Robert Hansen

All right. Native Americans typically vote Democrat. Currently, they have the right to vote in the national election.


Morgan Warstler

Native Americans are good Trump voters.


Robert Hansen

Are they?


Morgan Warstler

Yeah.


Robert Hansen

Interesting. I didn't know that. But even if they, let's say they weren't for a second. It is a bit odd to have somebody have a separate nation within our nation, and then give them rights to national vote. I could see a strong argument either way really. We've talked about union busting as well already. We don't probably need to cover that one.


Morgan Warstler

I generally, again, I think that I'd love to have more sovereign Indian nations doing crazy stuff inside our borders. I want to AB test everything. It's just, I think that it behooves us to move everybody to a software platform that's more like Amazon with a lot, with 300,000 different resellers who have some controls over how they present or do things.


But if I want to steal your software settings because yours are working so that, my city is going to run this the way that that other city is. A good idea should spread very, very quickly. Just a few changes in a few bits in the software. It's how I think about it. I'm with you. But I'm with you on the premise that we're eventually going to end up in a software-based government system.


Robert Hansen

Yeah. I think more where this is all going and there's a handful of others. But we can we can skip over it. I think where this is all going is that there seems to be a set of policies that you could bespoke craft these policies to be as hard and as unforgiving as possible in either direction.


Where I'm really going with this is, okay, if that's what one side looks like, what do you see the other side doing? If that's the very hard right. Let's say, I want absolutely guarantee that I'm going to have a Republican nominee get all the way into the White House over and over and over again because these policies have been met. What is the flip side of that? What are the opposing policies look like?


Morgan Warstler

If I'm a Californian, I would be a fury. I mean, if I'm a believer in socialism, I would not want my tax dollars collected and given to the rest of the states. I would want to move education, welfare and health care minimum to my state.


I would want to run them with absolute total control the way that I'm sure the founders would have envisioned it. I would want to do that because I believe that it was going to be the best system and that other people would adopt said system.


Robert Hansen

But how does that make more socialist voters in that case?


Morgan Warstler

Because I think that California has a significant number of people who are far more French, or Norwegian, or whatever it is in their mindset. It's probably because they’ve met a second or third generation California and they're already weird. You get to a sixth generation Californian. They're just bonkers. But there's something in the water. There's something and whatever.


I would like to see it expressed more. But I think that people don't understand that socialism requires, everybody still has to work. You just don't have as much control over the job that you have. They see the good spot but not necessarily the bad spot. I would love to see Oregon or Washington announce that there's not going to be any copyright, meaning they're not going to respect it.


Robert Hansen

I mean, they've already started to do that with things like defunding the police and other…


Morgan Warstler

Again, if you can figure out how to defund the police, you should have the opportunity to do that. I personally think that we should take everybody with a concealed carry permit, and be able to virtually deputize them.


them walk up to other people and be like, tap, tap! “I'm broadcasting audio video and my location. The cops are incoming. If you don't stop beating on that person, I can shoot you dead. I'm an agent of the state.” Virtually is the end task at whatever.


Robert Hansen

Pretty sure Washington, Oregon aren’t going to go for that one.


Morgan Warstler

But I'm not sure. Because that's literally what they did when they got to have an autonomous zone. Doesn't matter if you're making crazy jazz hands, and taking turns talking. They still set up and established rule system that they went out and applied.


Robert Hansen

Yeah. But that didn't end up being a state law. Let's say that was more, what ends up happening in, basically anarcho situations. Anarchies tend to devolve pretty quickly into authoritarian regimes. Whoever has the guns ends up running things. I think that's really what ended up happening in CHAZ.


Morgan Warstler

Yeah. Again, all I just believe, it's just like free speech. I'm a policy maximalist. I want people to be able to try and have far more controls the way the founders originally conceptualized it. I think there's a lot of value in letting people try their crazy things. Part of the reason again, this is just a basic from what I think is very important in education. I think Ruth Bader Ginsburg said this about abortion.


But basically you've got to let people learn the hard lesson themselves. You can't jump them to the back of the book and give them the answer that they're going to eventually get, and expect that there's going to be a cultural institutional knowledge about why we had to have abortion be illegal.


Just let the states get to the point where they're bankrupt. They'll figure it out themselves. Everybody will come to that conclusion. I think that that was a far, far better way. Let kids…


Robert Hansen

Maybe you already know the answer to this. If there was one piece of legislation you could put in place that you think would have the maximal amount of effect for improving Republican turnout or decreasing Democratic turnout or improving policy in general. Is it just stronger states’ rights? Is that what you go for?


Morgan Warstler

I want to replace the government with software. Meaning I believe and have spent years writing code and IP on it. But I believe that we're very close to states adopting software-based frameworks for running the government. That the moment you do that, you start to think about it.


Here's an example. Right now, the Democrats think they're letting on, just all the illegals are charging it. They think, oh my God, we're just throwing it up. They're giggling their heads off about it. The reality is that the sentence is going to come in. You're going to end up with a biometric guest worker visa which is a mobile app that allows me the employer to go, oh, picture, picture. Tap. Tap. Robert the illegal is now legal for six months.


He's got to present at a port of exit and get scanned. If he doesn't, he's not legal to work in the United States. He can come back in two months. If you bring your kids or your family’s found here, you're booted for a year until you come back, or two or whatever the algorithm figures out is the cycle. You will align the employers who all suddenly have an endless supply of low cost labor.


They're already set up for short-term labor where people come in and go. Their interests will suddenly be aligned with low-skilled natives who are most concerned not about jobs, but about sharing the welfare basket. Not welfare payments. But how many people are in the waiting room, the doctor's office, in the Medicaid office? How many are in the way of government trying to get their snap figured out? How many are in the classroom who don't speak English?


All of those concerns that low-skilled natives have. They're angry about that piece of it. It will align with the interests of employers. It's just a piece of software that everybody knows how it works. You can close your eyes. The more that you say, “Aha, we're winning, all of them are coming,” you're just shortening the amount of time until we do biometric guest worker visa. It's going to happen, meaning it is the end. Software takes over the world. Right.


Robert Hansen

Eats the world. Once upon a time, we were talking about why there can't be anarcho-socialism. I thought this is interesting. You spend just a minute explaining why there can't be such a thing. Why such a thing just doesn't actually make sense.


Morgan Warstler

Well, labor has to be done by somebody. Right? Doesn't matter what you do, a human. There's got to be some labor done. That guy's an end agent. If you just think about government, right, fill out this thing in triplicate. Then it goes to that guy. He stamps it and boom, boom. At the end of the day, that's just a bunch of people who are task rabbits. Because you can automize the process.


You don't need a government job in order to sign people up for food stamps. Or be able to help people figure out how to do it. The software should be learning how to help people do it without needing you along the way. But you're not needed for animal control or fill in potholes or wellhead inspection. Cops. But as I said, you could virtually deputize.


We only have one cop for every 1000 people. But you got 22 million concealed carry permits. That's 115 people or whatever. If you just think about an agency. Here's a bit of money to do this task. That's government. Because if the money comes from the tax collection authority, or the money printing authority, then you are doing a government job even if you're just doing it on a 1099. Right.


Robert Hansen

The reason you can't have both a socialist and someone who's an anarchist at the same time is socialist requires the government. Anarchy requires there is no government.


Morgan Warstler

Yeah. I think that socialism breaks down when nobody actually gets a government paycheck to control labor. Meaning they no longer, I'm the foreman, and tell you I run the factory. Right. I don't, it's hard to think about socialism where government has a very big welfare basket. Your app gives you, the small business you're working for pays you $100. You are a 16-year-old kid. The government's giving you 200.


You're getting 300 every week all summer long for working for this guy who's a welder. You're 14. Of course you're going to do it. That process right, is it a government job? Well, no. I mean, government put up the money, a big chunk of the money. But they were going to spend it on welfare anyway. It was going to go into Medicaid and just the other bucket.


You're generating more labor but it's a government job. It’s a hypothetical. Imagine you have an island or a street city block, where everybody's on welfare. Nobody works. I said, “Okay, Morgan, you're going to work for Robert, tomorrow. Robert, you're going to work for whoever's on the other side of Robert.” We’re all going to do this. I'm going to boss this guy around over here.


You've literally, for the welfare payment, you have increased consumption. But because you didn't turn it into a private sector job, you've just not counted it as GDP. You haven't earmarked that actually something worth money got done. You can't measure the economy properly. That's all. But you've literally created work at a job. At a government job.


The moment that the software just turns the corner, and says, “Okay, you're getting 200 from this guy, and 50.” The moment that that occurs, I don't know how you define a government job versus I'm working as a wage subsidy job. Socialism doesn't make sense to me. If you want to count the economics of it. How do you what… The government's literally the software. It's overseeing all of this movement, and making sure everybody gets.


Robert Hansen

To be clear to the audience, this is your idea of where it should go?


Morgan Warstler

I think it's what's happening.


Robert Hansen

It's already happened.


Morgan Warstler

It's happening in France right now.


Robert Hansen

To some extent. Not as much as you're saying.


Morgan Warstler

Do you or do you not want more Medicaid doctors to come in and be dispatched in an Uber-like environment so that they do house calls for poor people? Yes or no?


Robert Hansen

That sounds great.


Morgan Warstler

Okay.


Robert Hansen

Is that happening? It should happen.


Morgan Warstler

But no. But you know it's coming because we have Uber for everything.


Robert Hansen

All right. We'll get to that in a second. I think that, my take away from that is somebody who's wearing a hammer sickle, or a Che Guevara shirt, and an anarchy patch on their jeans or whatever. They probably just don't understand that those two documents don't jive particularly well with one another.


Morgan Warstler

Yeah, I don't know. I think that if you were in Oregon, and watching them build a little system.


Robert Hansen

I watched it from the internet. I didn’t go there personally.


Morgan Warstler

If you were there the moment some dude showed up and started bossing you around or asking to see your papers or interrogating you, you were experiencing the exact same government that you've been experiencing when before the put your shopping cart up.


Robert Hansen

Who would you say would be your twin? Your evil twin on the other side or your good twin if you're the evil one. Who do you look at as a thought leader who has some good arguments on the flip side?


Morgan Warstler

There's so many guys who have good arguments.


Robert Hansen

But specifically that you think are compelling and wouldn't necessarily put a wrench in what you're thinking but make you think.


Morgan Warstler

Smart guys on the left. Matt Stoller, Matt Bruenig, Matt Yglesias


Robert Hansen

Lots of Matts. You got to be named Matt.


Morgan Warstler

Steve Waldman. My buddy Carlos used to be a good Republican voter. He's my attorney. He's the guy who came up with mint the coin. The trillion dollar platinum coin. Carlos Mucha. He is a brother from another mother.


Robert Hansen

That’s a very interesting idea actually.


Morgan Warstler

Again, great, great out of the box thinking. A lot of guys who I consider to be, their big motivation is they want a larger welfare basket. The only thing that they're not comfortable with or you don't really know where somebody's head really is because they say they want a welfare basket. But you don't really know where their head is until you watch him force people to work.


Because there's a direct proportion, like with that welfare. Making everybody work for their neighbor. The total amount of consumption of work product goes up. That’s more consumption for poor people. If you just hand them free money there's just bidding up. No new labor occurs. You're just creating inflation for the same amount of services.


Robert Hansen

Definitely going to talk to you about inflation. I think it's time we should talk about your Uber for welfare. I saw a TED Talk by William Rowan. I don't know if that name rings a bell. But I think his idea was a little bit more narrow than yours. It was, seems to be about UBI. But UBI where everything is a government serve. Everything as a platform where people can go to it. It just ended right there.


He didn't start talking about what I think you brought to the table, which was, but there are certain things you can do to incent people to bid down the cost of labor. A lot of people were like, well, let's get the minimum wage up higher. Let's get it to 15. Let's get it to 20, 25, whatever.


You're saying the opposite. We can actually get this number down to virtually nothing. In doing so, there might be some massive economic gains for the United States and for the people on the bottom. Could you get in that the UBI, your version of UBI?


Morgan Warstler

Yeah. I would take every single person who gets welfare. I mean, all of it. From Medicaid, anything from 65 age to 18. I'd let kids in at 14 if they want it. They just join labor.gov as a job site. Right. The minimum bid would be $100 a week. Right. Job offer. It could be a 40-hour week job. It could be anything that somebody wants to put together. But you got to put 100 bucks in the machine. It's going to an escrow.


You can make the job offer to whoever you want. Looks like some version of eBay. The government would come in with 200. Everybody's getting 300 minimum. As the 25 million odd people who are currently not in the labor force participation, not in the job market are put to work, I'm going to have to bid more.


Meaning I get this girl to babysit. I get her again and I get her again. Somebody else is like, “show me people who've been rehired to babysit three times and within this zip code.”


They say, “Oh, I'll give you 140.”


I say, “No, I'll give you 180.” I'm spending 80 more. The government is putting in 40 less. She's coming out of the deal with 340. Right. The government is putting in less. You've got the economy cruising along. Anybody who nobody offers them a job at $100 a week, $5,200 a year. Or 5100 because everybody gets a paid big one week vacation or however you want to think about it. Just give them the 3, 290, whatever it is and then be done with it.


But if someone offers you work, you've got to choose your boss, is how I think about it. I would only let small businesses and families hire these people. I think that what that does is it creates a class of SMBs, of small business owners that, I'll get into this in a second. But it creates, it puts them in a position to do battle with the fortune 1000.


Because off the bat, that number where it tops out is, I'm spending 480. The government’s still putting in 10. It's at 490. If Walmart wants to hire somebody, they they're coming in at 500 bucks a week. You're going to have 25, 30 million people in this capitalism kiddie pool. Training, training wheels low, as shallow end of the pool member.


Robert Hansen

It’s giving them a resume. It's giving them something to talk about, and experience.


Morgan Warstler

I refer to this, when you flip it over. I refer to this as libertarian slave reparations. The way that I think about it is that every nationality, every group, every tribe, that arrived, that came in the United States, they all were originally organized by their entrepreneurial god-kings. The guys who are smart enough to figure out we can all do this.


They always competed on being the cheapest labor, right? The Irish showed up, and they were the cheapest labor. Before them, the Germans and after them, the Italians and Chinese came in. They were always organized and took their part of society where an entrepreneurial class organized them on low-cost labor.


The only group that never had that opportunity was black Americans. I don't mean people coming from Nigeria right now. I mean, black Americans who were brought over as slaves. I look at what happened to them. As the real issue is that my guys, the entrepreneur god-kings, they did not get to seize their part of the economy. I look at this system, how to fix that.


Because if you are in a high, anywhere you have a lot of poor people, you can easily say, okay, you’ve got to work for anybody outside half a mile or a quarter mile radius or a zip code. Whatever you come up with for Illinois or Chicago. Overnight, you have a certain group of people who have massively discounted low-cost labor to go compete with and compete on low-cost labor against everybody else. To grab up that part of the market.


There will be blood. There will be wealth transfer. There will be a lot of landscapers in North Chicago who are furious about this. Or dry cleaners, or barbecue shops or whatever you want to think of it as. But that process is self-leveling. As long as a group of people continue to be poor, they will continue to have a dramatically lower cost of labor of inputs.


If you're a landlord, right, and you’re originally redlined. You're a black guy who owned a couple of buildings, and you got screwed by the real estate industry in the 60s and 70s and 80s. Right now, this could be the defining benefit to you. Because the cost of your terms of pulling out the carpet, fixing up the place, rehabbing the properties and all the rest.


You're getting labor at a third of what everybody else is paying. Who is the bank going to give loans to? I treat it, low-cost labor, as a dramatic advantage that naturally goes to the people who are living within that community. I think of it as, that's the greatest amount of fairness I can come up with.


Robert Hansen

I mean, during COVID, we had some bizarre, microscopic version of UBI because the government effectively forced everyone to stop working. Why is your idea substantively better than just handing out capital? I mean, the thing that I really dislike about it is the inflation aspect of it.


I have watched my bank account worth approximately percent less in effectively a year due to massive amounts of money printing. Every American whether they realize it or not is a percent less money than they did a year ago. Unless they happen to have gotten a lot of money in their bank account. For some reason they are now worth less.


Morgan Warstler

If you're in assets, it's really weird. But if you were in even cars, or houses or you did just fine.


Robert Hansen

Then you’re fine. If you are not liquid, you are okay. If you're liquid, not okay.


Morgan Warstler

Yeah. The way to think about, the reason that you want to do Uber for welfare or labor.gov choose your boss. Whatever name you come up with for weekly wage subsidies, or weekly EITC. Or whatever you come up with it. The reason you want it, is that in January 2020, the average small business is paying a wage of 240. The government was paying $70 less than their 200. Right.


The moment that the pandemic hit, you have immediate fall off where the small businesses dropped down to 100. The government's coming in with two. They only are losing, the laborers only losing a small piece themselves. But the small businesses aren't firing anybody. You don't have to do PPP. You don't have to do, the money's already running all the time where it is zero labor slack all the time.


Nothing changed. The small business guys are going, wait a minute. We're not going to have a waiter but we're going to have drivers. We're going to need sterilizers. We're going to shift and jive. Their cost went down. Who's upset? Who doesn't gain? Who's like holy shit, there's piranhas in the water chewing our asses up are the fortune 1000.


The very guys who were very, very happy to have the economy shut down because they were essential and had to stay open. They'd lose their minds if every time the economy slowed down, small businesses could kick the shit out of them. It makes them fear economic slowdown. It forces them to become stewards of the economy because the last thing they need is to have the small businesses suddenly getting their labor, literally for $100 a week. That's a nightmare to them.


Robert Hansen

Okay. Why UBI and not Universal health care? Because, I mean, I think people who tend to like UBI tend to also like, by the way, I think your idea should be called Uber for Uber. Finding Uber drivers for Uber. But why not for health care? Why health care? Why does that get a bad rap with Republican Party?


Morgan Warstler

It's just a misnomer on the part of the Democrats. I don't think that most Democrats understand what they're asking for. Some do. That's why you suddenly hear them start to talk about Medicare for all, instead of Medicaid. It is really very simple. Most people don't realize it but there are two tiers of care in the United States.


The top 40% of doctors, the ones who are in PPOs and get paid those sick PPO rates. They take care of the top 60% of Americans. Top 40% of doctors take care of top 60% of Americans. Bottom 60% of doctors take care of bottom 40%. Those are the ones who take Medicaid rates.


Now out in rural areas and whatever everybody takes Medicaid. There's no way they can't. If you're rancher, you either drive a long way to see a specialist or you go to the Medicaid doctor too. But ultimately you are not going to get the top 60% to share their kickass 40% doctors. They're just not going to do it.


Democrats can talk about it all they want. It's not going to happen. The reason is because they don't. There's a huge difference between being an East Side Medicaid doctor's office in Austin, and being in a West Side PPO doctor's office in Austin, Texas. It's generally the same everywhere in the United States. Because of the way the winds blow. The east side is usually the poor place because they put the factories downtown, and the pollution…


Robert Hansen

Downwind.


Robert Hansen

Yeah, the pollution went to East. The East usually has all the, that's where they put the trains. Where the trains would land and everything else.


Robert Hansen

Power plants. That was actually the red zone as well. That's where the migrants and black people, slaves typically lived.


Morgan Warstler

There's a huge difference between those two doctors’ offices. It is bonkers how much different they are if you're in one or the other. But if you want mood stabilizers of any kind, you just go to the east side of town. They'll hand it out like candy. Because that’s, US crime policy is just giving out mood stabilizers to poor people.


But generally supposed to work or it does work quite a bit. But ultimately, I look at that as, we have two systems and we're never going to get the top half to share. What we should do is make Medicaid rock. Meaning it should be a basic care system that's entirely app driven. That you can instantly be on a video call with a doctor and almost anything.


Some Medicaid visa guy who probably doesn't speak English great, and only makes 90 grand a year. But he's driving out in his own car and seeing you. If you need to be sent someplace, then you go. But the whole process, we should just throw imported talent at it like nobody's business and make Medicaid cheap but kick-ass.


Robert Hansen

I like that idea. That's interesting. I heard that one.


Morgan Warstler

I don't know, how many, have you bought fake tits?


Robert Hansen

Not personally.


Morgan Warstler

If you know anything about that market, right, all three billing buckets. Surgeon, gas guy and facilities. The price has literally gone down in both real terms and nominal terms, since they invented the things. It's everything you want. But the only thing about it is that you got to pay cash. Right.


You got to have people who are shopping. It'd be great if we could figure out how to bring that level of shopping to a Medicaid system. But I don't think we're going to get there. I think that you just got to import endless amounts of, we should just take as many people who come in on a Medicaid visa. They got to work 20 years at taking Medicaid. We should literally try to double the amount.


My thinking is that Democrats don't love doctors very much. I don't think they have any love lost with the AMA. The AMA is going to kick and scream. But the only way you can really solve that riddle is if you let the top half go. You let the PPO guys continue to be more expensive. Continue to have all the concierge stuff. Continue to invent new equipment. Continue to do all that stuff, and let the bottom, just throw souls at it.


Import as many as you can. I think Democrats if they cared, really cared about it, they'd stop. It's so confusing to say Medicare for all because people imagine that they're going to have access to the better doctors. It's so weird. It's like, you're still going to go to the same doctor who's currently getting Medicaid rates. What's going to change if you pay Medicare rates? There's no new doctors anywhere. You're still going to that same guy.


Why are we even celebrating Medicare for all? Well, if you just want to talk about we should add this to Medicaid, well, I'd much rather have house calls and whatever. Because if you want to take care of homeless people, or people who are outside or on the edge, you need, everybody has to have a cell phone that is turned on 24/7.


You basically got to give them stuff so you can track them. So you can reach them. You got to be able to get to them before their medication runs out so they don't go Florida man and end up being a crime stat. I mean, that's literally, if you talk to, anytime you have a Florida man experience or Florida man environment, there's always a caseworker.


I've spent time with the HHS in Texas in Florida. You talk to these people. There's always a medication that somebody wasn't taking. They always know who the guy was, where we've had instances before. You have to sit on top of that if you really want to solve for it.


Robert Hansen

Alright. Let's change the topic a little bit back to, you had mentioned the government should have the back end of social media. We happen to be in the offices of a social media company. I'd be curious if you could elaborate, I know you're working a little bit with the Truth Social guys.


Morgan Warstler

I've spent a year watching from the sidelines, the Truth stuff. From both the Dework side and the truth guys. I'm familiar with, Twitter. Twitter nuked my account.


Robert Hansen

I saw this. I was going to bring that up actually.


Morgan Warstler

When I set up Break It Up, the plan to break up Washington DC. I was, literally, I was in the Oval. I spent 45 minutes talking about this to Trump at the resolute desk. Literally Donald Jr., Miller and Gretel all went out and started mentioning this on TV. My 13-year-old Twitter account disappeared.


They left me with this account I just set up called Break It Up that had 12 tweets. I was like, why? It wasn't, there was no, you are deleted. Here's the tweet. You have to delete. It was just, this account has been suspended. All I was doing was coordinating in my DMs, talking about pushing this idea. Yeah, I'm probably…


Robert Hansen

That's interesting. They never give you an explanation about why. No. Because normally that is the thing, you have to have broken some policy.


Morgan Warstler

Yeah. There was no, there was no tweet I could delete. There was nothing. I was literally, just my account went into suspension. Morgan Warstler just gone.


Robert Hansen

Have you tried to re-register it?


Morgan Warstler

No, it's literally suspended.


Robert Hansen

You can't even get it back from scratch or anything.


Morgan Warstler

Well, yeah. I'm sure that, I think Elon will put Trump back on and maybe I'll get back on too.


Robert Hansen

Yeah, let's talk about that. Let's talk about, I know you've been following that super closely. I have as well. What are your thoughts? This to me just seems like a very smart, hostile takeover.


Morgan Warstler

I can't play it all out in my head. It's amazing the number of financial people I asked who didn't know the answer to this. Today, he files the 13 G or whatever the paperwork was. It's sitting at 54.


The stock is going down as if the market does not believe that that this sale is going to go through at 54. Is there any reason? I mean, the volume had to be 300 million shares move today. Is there any reason that he didn't go out or can't go out and pick up another 10%?


Robert Hansen

I think he has to announce it beyond the 9.1% so that there might be some reasons he can't.


Morgan Warstler

That's the thing is that the people who I know are financials, when I asked them, they said, I don't know why he couldn't. Meaning there's nothing, because he's listed as an aqueous investor. There's no, he never agreed to a limit.


Robert Hansen

Now that he's not a board member, I think he can pick up whatever he wants, although I think he might still have to declare it at this point.


Morgan Warstler

I know, you have to declare once you get 5%. But I don't know whatever. I can't figure that out. It would seem to me if he thinks he is worth it at 54, it's really worth it at 45.


Robert Hansen

The other thing is, if it doesn't go through, I think he has already announced that he's just going to sell his 9.1% if that happens. Plus he's not involved anymore. I've got to imagine that stock is going to plummet.


Any existing investors, if they're not behind Elon at this point, who might be actually able to keep that share price nice and high, they're just not looking out for themselves and their bottom line. Am I my misunderstanding that?


Morgan Warstler

I don't, I can't figure it out. Meaning BlackRock, Vanguard, Morgan Stanley, they all have eight or 9% of the thing. They're all owners of Tesla of sizable amount as well, probably just by size meaning they have so much. That I suspect that at some point, your shareholders in those funds would have to be like, “I'm suing you.” I want, meaning the amount of discovery.


If there's anybody having any conversations about anything other than achieving maximum shareholder value, then you've violated your fiduciary concern. I can't imagine that there's not a lot of woke ESG noise going on in there that might not be covered.


Robert Hansen

I think there's already one lawsuit. I even think I saw the filing for it. I'm sure there will be more coming. But my question is more, what do you think Trump is going to do? Or if you were Trump, what would you do if you had Twitter?


Morgan Warstler

Oh, he's not. He would 100% jump on Twitter.


Robert Hansen

He would just get back on there. Just go at it again. Do you think Elon’s just going to free for all, just anybody gets do whatever, or control thing in place?


Morgan Warstler

I think that he or I've heard that he’d let Trump on but there'd still be limits. Well, yeah. I mean, I don't think that anybody is agreeing that Nazis get to march in Twitter immediately. This is what I mean. I think that there's a model that Twitter has to evolve to. That is like AWS where you have an account that you can pay hosting, and your DMs.


The very next step for me is the taxpayers pick up the $3 a year or $4 a year for as many people who want it on Facebook or Twitter with the state of Texas. If I can go and say, “Hey, here's my driver's license.” They will establish my username is Morgan Warstler, Texas-1 or whatever it is. That inside my DM, I should be able to create or link anonymous accounts, so that they can report in an O-off environment that even when I'm running around is big tool for you or whatever the hell it is.


This is actually a real person. We know who this person is. I don't think that this should. I don't think it should be news to people. I just think that it is going to be news. But you should expect that there are going to be natural digital civil rights created by red states that look very much like what Texas would want your rights to be like on the internet.


Which is, we gave them this DM. We gave them this lockbox. He's storing all kinds of stuff in there. We won't open it for civil warrant or a low grade felony because we believe that it's worth it to us as a state to provide that level of digital rights. I think it's the same way with Bitcoin. I think that Texas is going to fight to take over. I think red states are going to get rid of Know Your Customer, to some degree because it looks pretty clear to me, I mean, at least from where I'm sitting.


It's not only an industry, meaning, Georgia, Florida, Texas really kicking it, whatever. There are half a million miners coming from China that are all heading to mostly red states or purple states. I expect that they will naturally take a quarter point of their tax revenues and dump it into Bitcoin. They'll do it in order to basically point a gun at the Fed and say, “you can go ahead and try and print in order to pay off the debts of the blue bankrupt states. But we're going to get richer on that inflated dollar.”


It's just because of, if you look at you look at economic history, there is no US monetary policy. When Rick Perry, I think Ben Bernanke wouldn't want to come down here. He was speaking as Texas is kicking ass. We have balanced budgets. We're winning. We don't want money to be inflated, the way that California and Illinois do.


States have always had different versions, different interests towards inflation or no inflation. The free silver movement was the southern, poorly run, in-debt states. They wanted to be able to mint silver freely the way you could with gold. You could take gold to the mint, and they would make your coins. That was the gold backed currency.


They wanted to do it with silver as well. Then tie eight to one or whatever silver to gold so that they can inflate away their debts with a common monetary policy. That was William Jennings Bryan was, “you shall not crucify us on a cross of gold.” You're going to whatever. I think that the red states are going to crucify the blue states on a cross of Bitcoin. I think that that they will create an environment that…


Robert Hansen

You're pretty bullish on Bitcoin sounds like.


Morgan Warstler

I just think that it's a weapon to box the Fed in and towards public hosting. If you read the Federal Reserve's white paper on their new digital dollar, E dollar sign or whatever they call it at central Bank. Digital currency.


It's programmable. Which means public hosting, which means. People haven't thought about this yet. It means Nazis get to march in Illinois. Meaning it’s public hosting. Hopefully it'll go well.


Robert Hansen

Yeah. I think, this is back to the Twitter thing. I do think that what's going to end up happening is, we're going to have to give a voice to these Nazis. Because they haven't broken any laws yet. As soon as they break laws, on the other hand, because you have this identifier. You know who they actually are.


Well, at that point, you go and arrest them, because at that point they've actually done something that the First Amendment doesn't protect you from.


Morgan Warstler

Yeah. To me, if I'm the New York Times, or NPR, or thenation.com, or some crazy Antifa site whatever. I want Twitter to be decentralized so that my users can get their Twitter at my site, where we can organize our Twitter protests and create our Twitter content. We're all going to spread it. It's going to be like 4chan.


The campaigns they put together. But I'm going to do it at guns and ammo or at New York Times or whatever. They get to keep 35% or 65% of the ad revenue, depending on who sells the ads. Meaning who can get more for those eyeballs? The guns and ammo or Twitter.


I think there's a business there that's far larger. That takes all the publishers and they become the bloggers. You can have it be publicly hosted. My messages are stored here. If I'm talking to Robert at the New York Times where I do my twittering, and they kick him out because of his whatever, I can go to npr.com and pick up my Twitter there where Robert is not blocked.


The incentive structure changes. Because now every time the New York Times blocks somebody, they're creating another voice that's no longer accessible to people who might be interested in hearing Robert’s voice. Each publisher has to compete with one another on that decision-making process. They become far more carefully about which weeds they want to pull.


Robert Hansen

All right, let's change the topic a little bit here. I want to talk more about just raw economics for a second. There's a pretty big shift right now between the Keynesian economics and now the current Austrian School of Economics is coming in vogue.


It's been around a while now, but would you do me a favor and the audience a favor and just lay out the high level of the difference between the two?


Morgan Warstler

I think it is three. Your gold bugs, right? Are the original Austrians they don't want the government to actually print money themselves and if they're going to have it, they want there to be like a known limit to it right? Or backed by gold or whatever.


Those are your Bitcoin guys, now again. Keynes showed up and did battle around Austrian versus Keynesian economics and Keynes won. And I think that the natural gold bugs, guys like me, who realized they were not going to be able to win the gold bug argument, they invented what's called monetarism.


That was your uncle Miltie, Milton Friedman kind of response. Which was, “okay, we'll create new money, in order to deal with the economy. We won't have the government do its Keynesian thing on the fiscal side where it picks winners and losers and tries to control everything.


We'll just keep the amount of money growing at 2% a year or whatever it is, in order to keep the wild swings that were created in the Austrian business cycle from occurring.


Robert Hansen

Which was largely from the Great Depression, right? That's where a lot of that thinking came from.


Morgan Warstler

Yes. Maybe gold buggery is crazy. I think we're going to end up with a dual system where you'll have a Bitcoin that doesn't inflate.


Robert Hansen

But Bitcoin does inflate.


Morgan Warstler

You don't print more of it, meaning there's going to be 20 million coins, 21 million coins, and that's what it is. And it'll replace, it'll be used for cash, to some degree, when you don't want anybody to know that you're using it. And it'll be like gold, which is a hedge against inflation.


Then I think there'll be this digital dollar, that you use for taxes and the rest of it. The important thing, I think, when you think about currency in the United States or what's been going on. When the pandemic happened, literally, the Federal Reserve became the… they backed up every other central bank.


Meaning everybody else's currency was going to eat shit and die. And the US basically went in and provided liquidity to backup everybody, right? So when you see these massive amounts of new dollars that were created, it wasn't just for US people.


We were doing it globally at this point. Everyone’s on the dollar at this point. I mean, when you get down to it. What I think is going to be unique is that most of those 150 shithole countries that have their own Fiat, that's a shithole currency. They're going to lose it.


Meaning their talent in Turkey is good to just start being able to store money into bitcoin right now. If you are talent in Turkey, or your talent in China, or Brazil, or Russia or wherever. You have to collect dollars.


Robert Hansen

Are these all shithole countries? I just need it on the record.


Morgan Warstler

Yes. Most of those places are shitholes. You got to collect dollars, and then you got to set up a Caribbean triple stack shell corporation. And then you gotta go get a Trump condo, or got to get a condo or a piece of property right through a nameless, faceless entity.


The very definition of what is a first world country, the qualifying thing is that they allow nameless, faceless corporations to own property and be treated equally to citizens. If you don't do that, you're not a first world country. You can't be.


Because if you do that, then all of the shithole talent, because we got to hide our money over there. And it creates mass dollar demand, right drives up all our luxury 70% of property over like, half a million in Florida is bought by foreigners. And half of Vancouver is owned by CCP, but that's how they squirrel their bug out bag, their cash away is into some Western Asset.


Robert Hansen

And not just a bank, it's got to be a physical asset.


Morgan Warstler

Yes. Its hidden, that nobody can figure out.


Robert Hansen

It’s got to be physical is because it's got to be able to handle inflation.


Morgan Warstler

Yes. Again, it can't be seized from you because it's got paper title and a nameless face.


Robert Hansen

They sold that to Russia.


Morgan Warstler

Exactly. Right. And I'm a believer, right? That the US benefits from that. And if you close your eyes and think about it, you can just… I got this wallet, and BTC. And my digital dollars are on it. I started with BTC and it broke my shithole countries, Fiat privileges.


Because suddenly 30% of the wealth was all being hidden in Bitcoin. Texas was happily letting everybody hide it and got rid of Know Your Customer, because they wanted the industry to go bonkers. And they're making bitcoins worth a million dollars. And Texas was doing it on purpose.


Eu countries are trying to print more in order to cover and they can't. And when they crash, the Fed swoops in and goes, “We got this, from now on you'll use the digital dollar for your taxes and your transactions and whenever.” BTC sits as a hedge, Fed can't take it down, and they inflate too much.


Everybody moves to BTC and you get this equilibrium that I think is going to become, and if you're a native, you're a US native, you benefit immensely. Because all of those dollars that have to be printed out of air, they start off as welfare checks for us natives. That's how they enter the system.


The first guy who gets to use that money is oh, we have this sick welfare system in the US that's premised on all the top 1% move here and kick ass.


Robert Hansen

Let's talk about inflation. So I pay a lot of attention to the lower end of the market, because I think they're bellwethers of what's really happening. One thing I saw is the dollar stores now $1.25, for instance, that's not an 8% increase, that's a 25% increase to the bottom of the market.


I'm just looking around at property that is now worth 30% more than it was a handful of years ago. It's not like that property is 30% better than it was a couple of years ago. It's just that the amount of value of your dollar has shrunk by 30% in Austin.


I think that's very scary. Where do you see that going for people who just have cash and have always been told to be fiscally responsible and have some cash on hand?


Morgan Warstler

If you're sitting on a bunch of cash, you're probably screwed. We've been here before, right? Grand unified political theory stuff is, for me, having been around or at least attuned to it when I was younger at a very early age. JFK and LBJ, creator of a big new social welfare plan, their Obama, who created a big new social welfare plan, right.


The next guy to come in is Nixon, and Trump because the Jacksonians wake up and go, Holy Jesus, who thinks they're in charge of this place, and it's all these young kids running around like, oh, we won, we're in charge. We're going to boss everybody around.


They literally create a Gollum, a ship monster and send them to DC in order to just curb stomp these people and adapt. It scares, the democratic power, whatever, but it doesn't scare the young kids who are not in charge, but they still think they're right.


There's going to be another JFK or another Obama, just around the corner. And so the Democrats go out and they get themselves Southern, or passable conservative Carter, or Biden, the moderate whatever. But they're literally puppets.


Because the progressive young take over, and you watch what used to be a relatively moderate centrist, fake centrist, just shit the bed, just ruin it in front of everybody, right? So we've gone boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, that last cycle of LBJ, Nixon, Carter birthed us 28 years of conservative politics.


Reagan, Reagan, Bush, they literally were like, “Oh, let's try a Mondale.” The only state that Reagan didn't win, “Well, let that guy roll, we’ll try to caucus.” And literally, only then did they say, “Okay, let's get to southern Bubba's. And they're going to run on age of big government is over.


And they're barely going to win with 43% of the vote. And we're going to need Ross Perot in there in order…” they took all of that. And that was still not enough. Literally, he had to get rid of welfare, and all the rest of it. And all the way down for eight more years of Bush.


28 years before, you got to a point where there was an Obama who was like, “I'm going to be at JFK, I'm going to do it again.” that cycle to me, I would be terrified if I were a Democrat looking at that, I'd be like. It' s because when I was little, you'd be like, “Why are they running this guy this mean, little guy in a tank with his helmet on acting like they just…”


Democrats were dedicated to the idea that they were going to go back and get that thing they had from their youth, right? The Boomers however, if you look at them, they went from being these hippie dippie crazy kids who thought they were in charge of everything. By the time they hit 1980. They're starting to be yuppies.


They invented Fox News. By the time they got done, they all just voted in mass for Donald Trump to snap the hell out of…


Robert Hansen

Actually this is this kind of leads me to my next question. So you were actually one of the few people in the room when Trump was on the campaign trail. You were if memory serves, you were on the Tuesday morning calls or whatever, when that was happening.


Morgan Warstler

I saw a lot of stuff going on.


Robert Hansen

Kellyanne Conway came in, and my understanding is that Cambridge Analytica was pulled in right around that same time. Do you have any sense of how much of that had to do with it or whether this is just purely preference falsification, and people just truly were just…


Morgan Warstler

It was all bullshit.


Robert Hansen

What was?


Morgan Warstler

Cambridge Analytica went and seized all their terabytes of data and realized that all they did was licensed, nine databases of publicly available information, and then did a magic dance, and convinced Pascale they were magicians, and he just handed money. There’s no such thing as psychographics.


Robert Hansen

Funny I have a friend who will definitely disagree with you on this.


Morgan Warstler

Your friend is wrong.


Robert Hansen


I’ll get him on the show.


Morgan Warstler

I mean it this way. Remember how I said you how hard it is to get somebody to switch, to get from going from being straight to being gay, right? It's like 10 years of programming and whatever. There's no magic set of words. Right? That you can say to people that are like a spell that caused them to alter their behavior and change from the tribe that they're in to a new tribe.


Robert Hansen

Yes, but definitely in the center. You can move people in one direction or another.


Morgan Warstler

Yes, I'm not a big believer. I'm coming at this as a guy who's been around rhetoric and from professional debate to junk mail, infomercials and then internet and I've seen it whenever. I operate on the premise that people are tribal and you can get moderates to do moderate things.


Meaning I think you can get conservatives to have a bigger welfare basket if they're sure that everybody has to work. I think that you can get liberals to be okay with having less regulation as long as they're sure that the people being poorly rated, are scumbags.


Meaning they're okay with Uber and not taxis. Because everybody gets two way rate the driver and the driver, the rider. They're okay with Airbnb not really being a hotel, because there's this constant rating, of tracking back and forth. And that's a compromise that respects what they're really concerned about.


Robert Hansen

So explain why all the polls said one thing, and suddenly, Donald Trump appeared on stage as bewildered as everybody else was that he won.


Morgan Warstler

The polling was off three or four points.


Robert Hansen

It’s not just the polls that were wrong. It's not just that the people showed up and decided to vote a different way than they had previously polled.


Morgan Warstler

No, the pollsters, if you listen to them, and try and let them tell their whatever, they misidentified who was going to vote, and whatever. And they did it because preference falsification. But I think there were more people who on the inside who thought that this was a one in three chance.


They wanted it to be reported as one in 99. And so none of those people who knew it was one in three would correct the record, intentionally. I think they want there to be push polls, like right now, there are still push polls. Here's a good example.


My favorite Polling system is a thing from USC, daybreak, and they get a giant sample, right. And they send them an email once a week, and break them into groups of five or whatever. And say, “Who are you voting for? Who is your friends going to vote for? And what's your intensity to vote.” kind of thing.


And they just measure those. And the idea is by asking the same people, large set over and over and over, you eventually get them to give up their thing. My thing is, put everybody in it. Hell, my thing is, we should have blockchain voting.


You should be able to vote and change your vote as many times as you want, between January and midnight on the day of. And that's our poll. We know exactly who's winning and losing all the time. Because we can literally look at a bunch of votes that are all registered and say, “This guy is winning right now.” And we don't even need polls.


Robert Hansen

I want to change the topic slightly. I have heard a lot of people on the right say this thing that the left can't meme. Which I think is actually a funny meme. And you as somebody who Pervaiz or trades in memes, a lot of them. I thought this would be an interesting conversation real quick here.


But right off the bat, I started thinking like okay, what are left memes and are they actually bad? The ones I came up with Occupy Wall Street, 99% BLM, white fragility, toxic masculinity, me too, critical race theory, Stalinism, Marxism, communism. These are all memes these are all things that people carry with them and their mentality and how they see the world.


Morgan Warstler

Yes, and they are memes at the big sense


Robert Hansen

Yes, correct in the big sense.


Morgan Warstler

Meaning Dawkins, mimetics.


Robert Hansen

Yes. That is exactly what I mean.


Morgan Warstler

Where you're talking about ideas live in people's heads. The way to think about mimetics is if there is a God, He loves His children very, very much. And he looks down on them and watches to see which ones grow and which ones fail. And it's not us.


It's the ideas in our head. He's only interested in is this idea beating this idea? And does it work? Or does it not work?


Robert Hansen

I really like that. But what why is it that we are discounting how important these mimetic, these memes in the Dawkins sense of memes are to both popular culture and politics and all these things, it seems like, a lot of people are discounting, how good these memes have been.


Some of these, like, BLM that is literally like, I have a hard time when people talk about BLM, that is a pack. Somebody turned a political action committee into a meme.


Morgan Warstler

I don't disagree.


Robert Hansen

These are manufactured. These are not things that people just stumbled upon.


Morgan Warstler

I think that a bunch of people threw shit at the wall, one of them stuck and got picked up. The only difference is that BLM does not exist as a bunch of gift memes. And the difference is that the mainstream media doesn't operate, or its ideas are so shaky, that's how I think about it.


That the entirety of mainstream media has kind of the narrative, right. And recent announces the current thing, where they have the narrative, right, that emanates out of the Ivy League and the New York Times and Washington Post and whenever. They might absorb BLM and whoever threw that one together. Great.


But what's amazing is that a bunch of shit posters, making goofy little…


Robert Hansen

No, I get it.


Morgan Warstler

I can’t do battle with that.


Robert Hansen

I just don't think that the meme, although very funny that the left can't meme is just wildly wrong, because in a much more powerful mimetic sense, I think the left has been extraordinarily compelling with their memes.


Morgan Warstler

They own the media. I'm just fascinated by, you'd think that everybody would think in terms of that idea is as good as how much does it cost to make the idea pass? Meaning if you've got to spend huge amounts of money in order to maintain this narrative, it seems like you're admitting to some degree how bad the idea is.


If somebody can just slap together some Pepe thing and with a snarky comment and a picture of somebody and whatever and it sinks right to the teeth, and just neutralize everything that you're doing, and you can't get Biden past 35% and whatever. At some point you've got to say, money can't make this idea work.


Robert Hansen

Because the last one, there was communism, I think it's worth talking about communism as a model here. So I am currently watching China and their lockdowns in Shanghai. I don't know if you've watched this at all, but apparently, it's 20 Plus cities. It's not just Shanghai, Shanghai is just I think possibly the worst of them are one of the worst.


Morgan Warstler

Why do you think they're doing it?


Robert Hansen

Going to zero Covid is their answer. I think that the reason they're doing it is they want to exert as much political control as they possibly can. Put as many police checkpoints, as much surveillance, understand as much as they possibly can about their population and control as much as they possibly can.


Possibly kill a lot of people in the process, political adversaries, as well as watch who using their social credit score, who's going to be the complainers so that they can neutralize those targets as quickly as possible. It's the opening salvo to a much more authoritarian regime than it already exists in China.


It's just they will release these lockdowns, eventually, they have to, in waves, they'll turn it on and turn it off as they feel like it. But for the purpose of controlling their citizens, what do you think?


Morgan Warstler

That all sounds right. Yes, I don't think that China is a very hard beat. Meaning like I said earlier with federalism. I think the only people who will say, “Oh, the United States is going as a serious adversary, and they're going to out compete us and we're all fat and lazy and can't whatever.”


That's all premised on the idea that we're about to become California and New York. Nobody in their right mind thinks that the CCP is going to beat Texas, like Jesus Christ, Texas is meaner and nastier and smarter and willing to go to the mat and do all kinds of stuff to you.


Nobody thinks that you're going to beat Texas, nobody thinks you're going to be crazy Florida man, he's friggin nuts.


Robert Hansen

A lot of people do believe it though.


Morgan Warstler

They actually believe that we're going to be held down by California. That we're going to be yogurt eating, the culture is going to overwhelm and it's just not happening. It's just the opposite. I don't think that there's a real problem there.


Robert Hansen

So Jennifer Richmond, on my second podcast, I believe, I talked to her a little bit about the idea that you could theoretically expel Chinese students who are Communist Party affiliated.


Morgan Warstler

She didn't like that.


Robert Hansen

She didn't the idea. But one interesting thing about it, she was actually not correct one of the things she said, I went back and looked at it, she said, the amount of people coming to the United States, students coming in states was declining, that is not true.


What is happening is there's a difference between speed acceleration and something called a jerk. The Jerk is the derivative of the acceleration. Like as you're going a car, if your acceleration isn't accelerating, it's called a jerk.


She was talking about the jerk, the jerk is going down, which means the rate of acceleration is going down, but it's still accelerating. This is still moving up. Obviously, you can't have a jerk go on forever, because you run out of people.


But the point, I think her point is still sort of valid in that we're not seeing a tremendously large increase in acceleration. Which might point to the fact that we're less competitive or less interesting, but I was kind of curious to hear your take on that.


Morgan Warstler

Talent rules. Doesn't matter, talent rules. So in a totalitarian state, USSR, North Korea, they literally control their talent and put up walls so that they could enslave them, make them do things, or we're going to kill your grandma or wife or send you to the Gulag, or whatever the hell it is, right.


The whole premise of the Cold War was literally watching the talent try to defect, right, “I defect. I don't want to go back, I request that you let me stay here.” That was a guy who didn't even have roots here, you're just showing up like, “Don't make me go back.” A mafia state is a totalitarian state that isn't strong enough to be a totalitarian state.


The way they incentivize their talent, to participate in their corrupt mafia activities, is you can fucking leave. You can get the fuck out, you can get a Trump condo, after you squirrel away some dollars, just don't make any problems for us. And you can go over there.


Well, we can put the wall up, virtually, meaning database, every single person who's in the CCP, everyone has got a family member in the CCP and just randomly select 1000 of them and say you either defect right now, publicly renounced Chi and everything else that goes with it.


Where you get the fuck out, you're not living in anywhere in the West, sell your asset, you go back. And in my opinion, I can't say I'm right, but in my opinion, there will instantly overnight within the entire Chinese CCP be a Holy Jesus.


Because the guys who actually run the thing with the, you can get the fuck out rule, are now forced into a position where they're being publicly humiliated, total loss of face and they either have to put up the wall or admit they're a mafia state. And forget about testing the United States Texas metal, because the US just pulled the Texas move.


Overnight, they're in a position where if you want to keep making our washing machines you can and we don't care if you have slave labor or not, that was bullshit. But we're going to do the mining in Africa ourselves and give you the raw materials that are unnecessary, and we'll print as many dollars as we need to bid for those.


But we're going to run this thing, like we're in charge. And if you want to be in charge of your mafia state you can. But until you can boss your talent around and keep them in, lock them in and make them happy, you're playing in our game, because the talent rules in our game. And once we get the talent, they're here. And we control that flow.


Robert Hansen

I think you're going to get a lot of pushback on that idea, my friend.


Morgan Warstler

Everybody's wrong.


Robert Hansen

It's still interesting, though.


Morgan Warstler

But if you throw it out, here's my now flip it over. I just made a very big bold claim.


Robert Hansen

No. that's why have you on this show.


Morgan Warstler

If you flip it over, there's no reason not to try it. It's the most peaceful, simple, let's just see what the loyalty levels are. I


Robert Hansen

I think you get a lot of people saying you're xenophobic, or that you are this or that or whatever.


Morgan Warstler

Texas rules. And Texas is not xenophobic, Texas has been and is in charge. And everyone should understand that there's never been a time in history that the states getting all the population gain, do not take over US policy.


Robert Hansen

Okay, let's talk about population gain. So we are getting this population from, as you said, California and New York, in large part, these people coming to our state are going to vote.


Morgan Warstler

They are super, super conservative.


Robert Hansen

Not all, and certainly not in downtown Austin and some of the Metropolis areas.


Morgan Warstler

If you look at what just happened in the last election, right, there's a bunch of folks in the work from home. The economics guys in the work from home space. Your ex-wife venture will build tell you a bit about this. A buddy of mine Anna Mosnick was the chief economist for Upwork and is now at EIG. And there's a bunch of them.


But basically, there are doughnuts in every major urban county, Travis County, Miami Dade, whatever Houston is, downtown Dallas, San Francisco, look at the map of what just happened in the movement. Every major urban county lost overall population and all of the surrounding Absa counties gained population.


And in the 2020 election, they all voted Trump, the donut voted Trump and the hole voted even more for Biden, in all of these markets. Even in San Francisco, that donut didn't vote for Trump, but it voted more for Trump than the whole of the donut did. The movement was all from the center to the excerpt where people are like, I need more space.


I got to get away from all these crazies, there's homeless people all over the place. I can't have these people around. Literally my Facebook for Austin ANIC, we've lost kids. The town is booming. There's just more people moving here all the time. And we have less kids.


And it's because families with three and four kids are like moving out and one guy is moving in and buying their house. And he is the secret gun collector who has been waiting to let his toxic masculinity freak fly, freak flag fly.


Literally, if you talk to the guys who came from Oracle, right, who just landed from Warhol or the guys who even came from Apple and whatever, every one of them is like, “Man.” they're getting their Jones out.


Robert Hansen

I will say that I have met a large number of transplants who almost harshly say “I'm actually pretty left leaning at work. But out here I'm like can be who I am or whatever.”


Morgan Warstler

Talent doesn't get bossed around.


Robert Hansen

That to me is just preference falsification. They're just lying to everybody keep their job.


Morgan Warstler

The economist, the guy who did the, got a funny name. He's from Turkey. I'm not even going to try to get it out. He did a great, the guy who did all the work of Preference Falsification. He did a great podcast…


Robert Hansen

Is it Talib?


Morgan Warstler

No, Talib is another guy. He did a great podcast with Eric Weinstein on the portal. But basically, the day before the USSR fell, they had polls showing 80% support for the Politburo. And the lying gets louder, the more people are not supporting it at all. The more that you're forced into it, the louder your lie will be, you'll ham it up to a point where you're just faking it, and making fun of it while you do it.


But the research on it really messes with polling, it really messes with it. And what it means is, anytime you try to authoritatively force people into something, the more you push, the more they hide and obscure what they're really after.


If you look at the voting, because I was watching in, I follow local precincts pretty closely, I was watching the vote by mail on early vote turnout in these in the county surrounding Travis. And it was just going through the roof, and I couldn't for the life of me figure it out. I was like, Well, Jesus, if it's really the Democrats turnout early, were going to get slaughtered.


And it wasn't, like they just went big time for Trump. And if you knew the people, they were families who all picked up and moved to Dripping Springs and Buda and San Marcos, and they all did it because like half of them it was a cultural thing.


If you look at the numbers with Hispanics in Texas, a generation of Hispanics have been lost for the Democratic Party. There are in Starr County, crazy stat, Stark County, but Tejanos, Hispanic. In the census data 2020, Texas Tribune says this, that 96% are Hispanic, and of those 99% reported their race as white.


The whitest County in Texas, is on the border in El Paso. And it's full of people who date back to longer than we were here, 1540 whatever. And in their minds, they no longer want to be called Hispanic. Like they're just out of there, they're done with it. Because they've turned white into just being American at this point.


Robert Hansen

To them white is a culture, it's not an ethnicity. White is an ethnicity.


Morgan Warstler

They’ve literally turned it into like saying I'm for America is being white. And I can't believe that they're still out there telling people using the phrase Latin X, its bonkers.


Robert Hansen

All right? Tell me about GovWhiz, I think this is going to be interesting the audience along these lines got so


Morgan Warstler

I did a bunch of work with Qualcomm C suite years and years ago, 2014, 13 where I've just done so many startups that it was like, we go in and get to look at their three year out R&D, and put together programs that were kind of like not fake startups, but showcases startups to take real edge tech and show it off.


One of the things that we did was AR, we just did an AR thing, literally before it became the euphoria package that they had, so long ago. But in the course of that, they said, “If you ever come up with something that that it's going to sell a billion dollar chips just tell us and whatever.”


In the course of building this thing, had a brain wave around no coding platform to build mobile apps. I knew and started a conversation with Newt Gingrich. And anytime you talk to politicians, they are incredibly good at absorbing what you just said, and then turning around and like 20 minutes later repeating it in their own way, this is talent.


I told him, “Look, I think that there's a way to put together government as a mobile app platform that can be crowded sourced and whatever.” Literally, there's all these videos of him in like 2014 holding up a smartphone and being like, “Why don't we have this on government? And what are we going to call this smartphone from now on.” And all this crazy stuff, a really smart guy.


I went to the folks who pour comments say, “Hey I got your billion dollar idea here. We're going to start a mobile for government and Newt Gingrich is just going to sit on top of it, and we're going to call it America. 2.0. And this is what we're going to do” And they were like, this sounds great.


Came back today we talked to the Jacobs family, and they are uninterested in getting anywhere near Newt Gingrich.


Robert Hansen

He’s polarizing.


Morgan Warstler

Yes, and right then my business partner who is still living in Hollywood, I had moved here when my daughter was born. He ran into Governor Perry VRP, smartest guy I've ever met in politics is Rick Perry. I mean, amazing how smart the guy is, bonkers, crazy.


Robert Hansen

He like remembers every single person's name he's ever met, once.


Morgan Warstler

He can listen and absorb stuff, and then turn around and describe it. And I'm dumbfounded, how within…


Robert Hansen

It’s amazing what a bad rap he got with the press.


Morgan Warstler

Anyway, he grabbed us and said, “Look, if you'll move this to Austin, we were going to do it in LA and DC. So if you'll move it, Austin, I’ll set it up so you have as much time to go and investigate how government works.” Not like I'd spend any time inside government proper. I just had this…


Robert Hansen

Because you are sort of saying anyway.


Morgan Warstler

I had a two year period, almost two and a half, where I was talking to different departments and looking at all the PDFs they had, what's the volume? When you collect this many PDFs, what happens here? And how many of these people are all these goals?


To really understand just my own little McKinsey, is thinking about it. Began the process of putting together no code platform for a company called GovWhiz. And somehow or another, right when he left office, he showed up at our office.


Literally this is how it all went down. He showed up at our office, and I wasn't there. A couple of the employees said we're going over to talk to the lottery department. And he said, “Do you mind if I tag along?” And, sure, and he's Rick Perry, sure.


Robert Hansen

How do you say no?


Morgan Warstler

So they walk in, and they all wrote down their names and wrote GovWhiz, which is the entity. And he did too. But he wrote a Rick Perry. And the gal who is sitting there, instantly picks up the phone and calls this reporter at The Statesman and says “Rick Perry just walked in here meeting with the winery with a company, and this is what he's doing next.”


I hadn't even started coding, I was literally just like, had this idea around the back of lottery tickets should bid, the state has a reason to run something like Groupon, where small businesses can create coupons where they get to keep they only give away a buck or whatever.


So the back of a lottery ticket can be a coupon, it's like Groupon but you don't spend any money and small business benefits. Right? It was just a simple little idea, just to get a sense of how their current ticketing, back to the scanning react double entry win a secondary prize, all that stuff.


He just goes to see what we're trying to do. So he better understand, he was like, overnight, there were like three full page articles about this stealth GovWhiz company, and the guy's like, calling me over and over and I'm, I just enjoy stuff like this way too much.


I'm just like, poke the bear, poke the bear whatever. But it blew up. It created all kinds of issues for us. And simultaneously, as the coding. began, I started to think about the IP that we were doing. And the end result of it is that I put all the IP into a secondary entity called BN, it stands for build everything in that nothing.


I have been working very, very behind the scenes, it's a four patent family. And the fourth one was literally just numbered and issued last week. So I know I could talk about it. It is a patented, all the patents are wrapped around the creation of mobile apps, by building forms that use a limited dictionary of 150 words in whatever language you speak, in whatever country you're in.


You only need those words written in order and you can build any kind of app or App Suite, series of apps that work together in a central database. The first one was just around how this system worked. And then the second one is around this thing that we refer to as soft law.


Which is the idea that you could get rid of the executive branch, if the city council let citizens make an app. And you actually just took the source code, which is just a series of words, and wrote it directly into the law and said, “This will be the source code.” And we all vote yes.


So the app goes gold and there is no technology firm to hire, there is no software company, for the city manager to go out and RFP and all the rest of it.


Robert Hansen

It takes six months and it’s broken.


Morgan Warstler

It should be able to work all the way up to like healthcare.gov. And you should have an open kind of platform. So we refer to this as a software thing. But the real one for me was that we've gotten the very first software patent or patent on a software building platform that's so easy to use, you cannot patent anything you build with it and you cannot copyright the source code.


It's written, and the way to think about it is it'd be like if you went back and built the telegraph, and did it with an English dictionary that only had 1500 words in it. And because of that, you couldn't say, on Sunday the fourth last Rover, your beloved pet passed, you can only say, dog dead or dead dog.


That's all you can say. And because of that, you can't claim any intellectual property rights or copyright around it. And so the idea that we have is that governments, states, city governments should be able to throw up this thing that looks like a cross between GitHub and Wikipedia.


All the pizza shops in the world can go to one page where they build out little apps that all work together for running their pizza shop, QR code, menu load, order, order. App number two says do the kitchen, the kitchen…


Robert Hansen

And this is all written in code that has words.


Morgan Warstler

Yes. All written in human language, right? You can string these apps together into an app suite. And that the moment you start writing it, it's like Wikipedia, everyone else is seeing too. My whole thing is that small businesses should be provided hosting, schools should be provided hosting, parents groups should be provided hosting.


They should be able to build these apps, but just automatically exist in the ether. And that anytime the city has a bunch of people say we want to use this, city council just says yes, and that code becomes the law. And the premise behind it is that you can run a political party this way.


That Robert, can decide he wants to run for city council and walk around with an app that as he goes door to door knows whose door he's walking up to. And the app shows off of all the possible apps, the ones that this person is going to be turned on to the most.


You got a cat, oh, here's the cat out of the tree retrieval app, or whatever it is and says, literally, I'm going to turn government into this, give me your phone number, I'll give you a copy of the app, you can play with it. And in my mind, that type of that that is a political party that's a piece of software that generates revenue, that literally goes into getting more politicians elected.


In order to deploy more of its apps, and that you should, theoretically, I came up with this after reading Daymond, by Daniel Suarez, where like, guy dies, and the AI software takes off and starts building a competitive system.


In my mind, that's what you should want is to have an open no code platform that everyone can crowdsource their own solutions to, that governments can adopt and basically be forced by their citizens to adopt. And it should, over time, obviate public employee unions.


That very system of the Democrats get the union dues, and the money goes to get elected, the profits from this entity, at a state by state level should funnel back into getting more and more people elected to adopt this platform. It should be, give them as many tools as possible for free to run for office.


I'm a big believer that the right now if you look at voter records in the state of Texas, right, It's a very incredibly complicated file. And it comes along with here's all the registered voters. But then there's another thing that says Robert voted in this election in this election, in this election, this election.


If you tried to read that data, it's incredibly complicated, but we pay for it. And if you want to run for office, well, the first thing you've got to do is go pay some jerk off five grand, in order to have his piece of software give you a map that shows you where everybody lives on the map.


And where you're going to walk, at each house, who you're going to talk to, and who you want to make contact with, which houses skip and which ones not. And all of that should exist at the Secretary of State's website, so that we encourage people from all parties to run for office and not have to spend any money to do it.


It's open available data and it should be on a beautiful precinct map. so I believe that this model is coming. And again, I am not telling you, it's going to be next week. I have learned that when I said “Oh, video on the internet is going to all be delivered over the internet, and broadcast systems aren't going to do whatever.” It took 20 years for that to happen.


But I can show you my digital markets NFT platform description from 2005. And it's still just slowly getting there. So, slowly, we'll get there.


Robert Hansen

So where can people find you?


Morgan Warstler

No. So BN is just getting ready to launch patents themselves, along with software code that everybody can look through and see how it all works. Like the original source code of the software. We're not releasing it to everybody to use, but everybody should understand exactly what's going on in the platform.


From there, I am doing everything I can to identify who I either license it to, or outright sell it to or if the entire thing goes into the public domain.


Robert Hansen

Where will they find this?


Morgan Warstler

It’s bn.io From where I'm sitting, this has been a labor of if I was going to try to build a piece of software that could take over and let everybody on earth be able to make use of it. I think that it works great with a smart City operation for Cisco.


I think it works great with, you can put it in any social media platform and instantly start delivering apps directly because it's just a very small render language, right? It's very, very small. But the key part about when you say you're going to do this stupid thing is, there's no control over the UX whatsoever.


It all goes back to, this actually something I argued with Andreessen with a long time ago, when I first got my grandfather on the internet, it was like 1997. My grandma had gotten on earlier, right. but he, I got a new E machine, and said, “Okay, you have to sit down here and figure out how to do something.”


He said, “I want to get a Callaway Big Bertha golf club,” and literally, you went to the site, and it was a form that you printed out, and put it in an envelope, and then send it right. And he thought, “This is genius. This is the very best thing I've ever seen.” In his mind, there are no more catalogs.


That was what the internet meant. And literally, a week and a half later, I called him and said, “Hey, you know what have you been doing on the internet?”. He's “Oh, I went to the title of site, and I couldn't even find it. everything was changed.”


Ever since then, my attitude has been that if we had built the original internet browser, so that there was a catalog button, and a Wallet button, about the company button, and a forum button, and feedback and this button, that button, that every website would be exactly the same.


The only thing you'd uploaded be text and photos or video imagery or whatever. And the moment that the dumbest guy learned to use the internet, went to one site, one mobile app, every other app will work just the same.


Robert Hansen

I think both Wix and WordPress and similar things are trying to do that.


Morgan Warstler

I know, but in my mind, you've got to completely remove the idea of a website designer, those people just need to be put down. Someone should be able to control their user interface. If Robert wants the internet to look like this, or his mobile to look like this. It makes total sense to me.


But after that, everything else, every restaurant, he goes to, everything he does, it should look exactly the way he wants it to look. And because that's the quality, that's digital equity. If you let everybody build a different one, and have pride of authorship on the user interface, what you're really doing is benefiting the smartest 20% and sacrificing the bottom 80% who are not able to keep up and there's no reason for it.


Robert Hansen

Morgan, we've got almost three hours now. I think we're going to have to do this again, at some point,


Morgan Warstler

Yes, I had a lot of fun.


Robert Hansen


It was it was a lot of fun. I think there's a lot more we have to cover, though, at some point. So how about this, maybe next season I'll have you back as a guest. Most hated and beloved guest.


Morgan Warstler

We should start to do this in a bar somewhere.


Robert Hansen

Thank you so much for joining us.


Morgan Warstler

Thanks buddy.


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